Japan 300w as first shipment: The follow up

[Lunatic_Fringe]

Hello folks,

Recently I've been having a decent amount of success by sending 300w as the first shipment with Japan. My strategy lies on the aggressive side, where I use the consulate to get Clubs and military units to contest the early age 2. This is of course not the best build, but I find it acceptable. Note that I select the Toshugu shrine wonder to get to colonial.

My question is how to best use the wood during transition to the colonial age. First of all, I will briefly explain what I tend to do in the early game:

Assuming that I get a good discovery start and click up with 30 pop, I usually build 2 more shrines (250w) + 1 consulate (200w) + save (200w) for the military building. This allows me to start the colonial age with 70 pop (which I believe is respectable using this strategy). Total wood needed= 650
Once I get to age 2, I distribute my vills to foods and gold, with shrines on gold. The first colonial shipment is 4 vills, allowing me to get batches of 5 musks consistently (if I open with a rax). I usually wait for 600w as the second colonial shipment to get the market with the techs. However, this looks fairly late for me.

I am thinking that in transition to colonial, I should build only 1 shrine (125w)+ 1 consulate (200w)+ save (200w) for the military building + build a market (100w) and get the first 3 techs: food, gold and civil servant (~115w + additional food & gold). Total wood needed= 740 + additional food & gold.

In summary, would it best to omit one shrine and get the market instead in transition to colonial using this build?

Thanks for reading and for provinding your suggestions

[n0el]

I prefer the market but I’m sure you could just do the math and see which is better.

[vividlyplain]

I prefer the market but I’m sure you could just do the math and see which is better.

@I_HaRRiiSoN_I

[jesus3]

going 4v first seems a lot like half-assing it to me. You kinda want to commit to Colonial aggression but then you ship a long term card with no immediate effect compared to 600w (xp and infrastructure) or 5ashi/yumi for actual military advantage

[Superfly47]

Get 2nd cherry tech, you will have more vils on food than gold. If you are going Yumi, could skip coin tech till later.

[harcha]

i really like sending 600w as first thing in colonial. this not only gives you the resources necessary for infrastructure (market for upgrades, more shrines for eco and xp, TP for xp), but also lets you get out a quick yumi batch when in need. it just offers very valuable flexibility. anyway shipping 4v first is too greedy and not even great for a greedy playstyle compared to 600w

[Mitoe]

going 4v first seems a lot like half-assing it to me. You kinda want to commit to Colonial aggression but then you ship a long term card with no immediate effect compared to 600w (xp and infrastructure) or 5ashi/yumi for actual military advantage

I like 4v actually. I send it a lot when I’m doing a similar build, just because of how much easier it is to consistently get 5 ashi at a time. Ofc there are some matchups where you simply cannot wait for 5 ashi and have to ship it 1st, but if you’re choosing between 600w and 4v when you’re being aggressive I think that 4v just makes more sense unless you’re making Yumi.

Keep in mind that if you’re really playing that aggressive you’ll want your monks with your army, and you won’t want to be building shrines with them.

[Zutazuta]

Plus if you send 4 vil and need the pop space back later to keep up the rush, you can just delete them. Way easier than findin' your dead scouts on the map and trying to build more shrines.

[Zeke]

Plus if you send 4 vil and need the pop space back later to keep up the rush, you can just delete them. Way easier than findin' your dead scouts on the map and trying to build more shrines.

If I upgrade my vills that just makes it harder for my opponent to free up some of my pop space in a time of need. No thanks.

those points are the real winning conditions!

[Zutazuta]

Let’s face it, we all have a little swe inside of us!

[[Armag] diarouga]

I prefer 2v/600w over 300w/4v, but 300w seems to be a decent option too.

[fei123456]

300w > 2v, especially in EP while shrines are cheaper.

Generally you send 300w, then unit shipment, then adapt. With 5 clubs and 10-15 units you can easily stop a rush, break the fb, or to raid his vills, destroy the TP, etc. Then you can still go 600w/4v for eco, then 600g for cavs or to age up. 300w start doesn't mean no-eco rush; it's quite versatile though.

But 300w-4v seems no good tho. If you want early eco you just send kami.

[[Armag] diarouga]

300w > 2v, especially in EP while shrines are cheaper.

Generally you send 300w, then unit shipment, then adapt. With 5 clubs and 10-15 units you can easily stop a rush, break the fb, or to raid his vills, destroy the TP, etc. Then you can still go 600w/4v for eco, then 600g for cavs or to age up. 300w start doesn't mean no-eco rush; it's quite versatile though.

But 300w-4v seems no good tho. If you want early eco you just send kami.

Dunno if 300w is really better.
2v makes you age faster because they gather food while you have to spend VS to gather the wood crates.

[jesus3]

going 4v first seems a lot like half-assing it to me. You kinda want to commit to Colonial aggression but then you ship a long term card with no immediate effect compared to 600w (xp and infrastructure) or 5ashi/yumi for actual military advantage

I like 4v actually. I send it a lot when I’m doing a similar build, just because of how much easier it is to consistently get 5 ashi at a time. Ofc there are some matchups where you simply cannot wait for 5 ashi and have to ship it 1st, but if you’re choosing between 600w and 4v when you’re being aggressive I think that 4v just makes more sense unless you’re making Yumi.

Keep in mind that if you’re really playing that aggressive you’ll want your monks with your army, and you won’t want to be building shrines with them.

Alright, didn't know that's an actual thing - my badsh

[fei123456]

Dunno if 300w is really better.
2v makes you age faster because they gather food while you have to spend VS to gather the wood crates.

300 w=2.5 shrines which has better efficiency already, and you get extra XP and pop limit too.

Also, shrines don't gather from cherry orchards so you can send orchards later, which may be extremely important in some cases. 2v gathers ~80 food per minute, and it's 800 food after 10 mins: you don't want to send orchards when you're holding the timing push.

That's why I don't like 4v shipment too: less vills and more shrines is generally better than more vills and less shrines.

[Astaroth]

At the same time, more shrines on the map also makes you more vulnurable to shrine raiding, whereas vills in your base are safer.

I guess it's a tradeoff and depends on your playstyle.

[Darwin_]

I think getting a TP when you are playing agro as japan is better than a market and techs.

If you're playing slow japan (5:00+ age up) the tp doesn't help your progression until your fourth shipment, but if you are aging earlier it will help out a lot and make sending 2 orchards less awkward.

Also, if you start with a coin crate (and ideally you have at least 30 coin in treasures), starting with a market is pretty strong, as you can can buy 100 wood, get the first berry tech, then delay your shift to wood during transition by a few seconds and get the first wood upgrade, or you can not get the wood up and just have a normal transition.

[hidden_blaze]

Hello folks,

Recently I've been having a decent amount of success by sending 300w as the first shipment with Japan. My strategy lies on the aggressive side, where I use the consulate to get Clubs and military units to contest the early age 2. This is of course not the best build, but I find it acceptable. Note that I select the Toshugu shrine wonder to get to colonial.

My question is how to best use the wood during transition to the colonial age. First of all, I will briefly explain what I tend to do in the early game:

Assuming that I get a good discovery start and click up with 30 pop, I usually build 2 more shrines (250w) + 1 consulate (200w) + save (200w) for the military building. This allows me to start the colonial age with 70 pop (which I believe is respectable using this strategy). Total wood needed= 650
Once I get to age 2, I distribute my vills to foods and gold, with shrines on gold. The first colonial shipment is 4 vills, allowing me to get batches of 5 musks consistently (if I open with a rax). I usually wait for 600w as the second colonial shipment to get the market with the techs. However, this looks fairly late for me.

I am thinking that in transition to colonial, I should build only 1 shrine (125w)+ 1 consulate (200w)+ save (200w) for the military building + build a market (100w) and get the first 3 techs: food, gold and civil servant (~115w + additional food & gold). Total wood needed= 740 + additional food & gold.

In summary, would it best to omit one shrine and get the market instead in transition to colonial using this build?

Thanks for reading and for provinding your suggestions

So here are my thoughts regarding that matter:

I'm pretty sure that building the market in the transition and researching these upgrades you mentioned is economically superior to building one additional shrine. I mean what is one shrine worth? It gives you ten pop, which i think is completetly irrelevant. considering that you'd already have 60 pop when hitting age II, it is certainly enough not to pop-block yourself until 600 wood arrives as your second shipment (50 or maybe even 40 pop would probably do as well). Also, the additional shrine without heavenly kami isn't much of an economical boon as well, considering that it would take like 5 mins to repay itself (if on wood constantly). The way I see it, you basically pay 120 wood to get 10 pop which you don't need and a neglectable resource trickle. I think the market, with said upgrades, will be far better, since they will boost your coin and food vils by 10%.
That being said however, building the market in the transition will decrease your ability to get out constant batches of 5 ashi early on, simply because the investment is so much bigger and your vils will have less time to gather for them. This means that you'll probably have to readjust your playing style a bit and lay your focus to the mid- and late-colonial (which raises the question if heavenly kami wouldn't have been better to begin with...).
Gernerally, I personally don't see the point of hitting the colonial with 70 pop without kami, so even if you decide to not build the market in transition, I'd probably would also not build the second shrine (maybe not even the first, 50 pop should be more than sufficient) if your aim is to push early. I'd rather go for a tp or something.

[gamevideo113]

I really like 300w first with japan. It's flexible because it gives you both eco (comparable to 2 vills) and pop space.
I think it's good for both protuguese cons builds and aggressive torii gates builds.
I don't like early market with japan because a good portion of your eco will be shrines, so they aren't affected by market upgrades. I'd rather build a market later, and focus on shrines or TPs early on.

[Lunatic_Fringe]

i really like sending 600w as first thing in colonial. this not only gives you the resources necessary for infrastructure (market for upgrades, more shrines for eco and xp, TP for xp), but also lets you get out a quick yumi batch when in need. it just offers very valuable flexibility. anyway shipping 4v first is too greedy and not even great for a greedy playstyle compared to 600w

Sending 600w is a great point. It certainly provides the resources and infrastructure needed. The only reason why I was sending 4v is because it gives a nice boost to produce batches of 5 easily. I will definitely try the 600w first
Thank you!

[Lunatic_Fringe]

going 4v first seems a lot like half-assing it to me. You kinda want to commit to Colonial aggression but then you ship a long term card with no immediate effect compared to 600w (xp and infrastructure) or 5ashi/yumi for actual military advantage

I like 4v actually. I send it a lot when I’m doing a similar build, just because of how much easier it is to consistently get 5 ashi at a time. Ofc there are some matchups where you simply cannot wait for 5 ashi and have to ship it 1st, but if you’re choosing between 600w and 4v when you’re being aggressive I think that 4v just makes more sense unless you’re making Yumi.

Keep in mind that if you’re really playing that aggressive you’ll want your monks with your army, and you won’t want to be building shrines with them.

I started implementing the 300w as first card after watching one of your games vs Germany
The build is pretty much the same as the one you did, except that here, I am trying to get the market earlier. I will try to give up a shirne in favour of the market and see what it gives, while still sending 4 vills first.

[Lunatic_Fringe]

I think getting a TP when you are playing agro as japan is better than a market and techs.

If you're playing slow japan (5:00+ age up) the tp doesn't help your progression until your fourth shipment, but if you are aging earlier it will help out a lot and make sending 2 orchards less awkward.

Also, if you start with a coin crate (and ideally you have at least 30 coin in treasures), starting with a market is pretty strong, as you can can buy 100 wood, get the first berry tech, then delay your shift to wood during transition by a few seconds and get the first wood upgrade, or you can not get the wood up and just have a normal transition.

The TP is definitely an excellent option. The con of this building is omitting shrines, and hence less pop space. On the other hand, more shipments will pour in.