How do you counter the Germans

France Kaiserklein
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by Kaiserklein »

chronique wrote:This is exactly the best way too improve. If i need to teach the game at someone who have never play and want improve quiclky, i will teach him how double rax jan and nothing else untill he is pr 25 (ok maybe the tower ff). With that, you will learn the very basic. If you can't reach this level with simple build like that, that mean you are not good enough too learne other stuff. This is how it work in sport, and there is no reason why it should be different in video game.

Anyway i said what i think, people can do whatever they want with it (and when i see rohbro pr 36 after 3 month of practise with me, i will stay on my position :D )
I think you're confusing "pr" and "skill". Sure you can reach pr25 with jan rush but in fact you'd be way worse than pr25. And instead of learning real mechanics, like training vils constantly (yes, many good players don't even do that), microing instead of z moving musks, defending instead of being the aggressor... You just don't learn much. There's a reason why everyone says you shouldn't play otto if you want to improve, but France, typically.
For example, I didn't get my current micro from jan rushing. I got it from playing germany and basically spamming xbows on nilla lol. In hindsight that wasn't ideal cause I lacked the understanding of the game back then, as I was a xbow bot. But still at least I learned how to kite 24/7 (without attack move too). I probably wouldn't be the same player if I played otto.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by chronique »

Kaiserklein wrote: I didn't get my current micro from jan rushing. I got it from playing germany and basically spamming xbows on nilla lol. In hindsight that wasn't ideal cause I lacked the understanding of the game back then, as I was a xbow bot. But still at least I learned how to kite 24/7 (without attack move too). I probably wouldn't be the same player if I played otto.
You know the paragraph defend my point of view? You played like a bot, you learne one basic mechanic (kiting) and that exactly what i said (nilla xbow was pretty for that because you can spam them with nothing else to do). Otto is just the best at reaching pr 25 which is the most important because your can't realy learn before that point. When you are pr25, the true practise began, spam jan / abus and learn kitting :D (or pick an other civ, i have never said otto was the best for improve after pr 25, this is the best at the begining).
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by iNcog »

Win by any means possible. Try to learn several means. Right now in AOE2 I'm trying to learn to open scouts, fast castle, but also douche and tower rush. honestly the troll strats are so much harder to win with than standard play
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by draztik »

I think the more you have "tips" or "secrets" in one discipline, then the more you become good at it. Mastering only one tactic or one strategy is not enough .
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by flontier »

iNcog wrote:Win by any means possible. Try to learn several means. Right now in AOE2 I'm trying to learn to open scouts, fast castle, but also douche and tower rush. honestly the troll strats are so much harder to win with than standard play
whats your nick in DE ? we could practise some games, i start playing recently :)
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

draztik wrote:I think the more you have "tips" or "secrets" in one discipline, then the more you become good at it. Mastering only one tactic or one strategy is not enough .
Not really. It's true at the highest level because top players can execute any strat, as they have a good enough macro and game understanding, and you'll get countered if you're a one trick poney, but at pr30- you should just go for the same strat every game. It's the fastest way to improve your mechanics (as you won't have to focus on your BO, since you know it well), and your game understanding because you'll understand the small differences between your opponents' BO.

That's a general rule in strategy games, always go for the same strat until you master it. It's common knowledge that you should stick to one opening at chess if you're below 2000 elos and in sc2 if you're below master 1.
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Post by Guigs »

chronique wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote: I didn't get my current micro from jan rushing. I got it from playing germany and basically spamming xbows on nilla lol. In hindsight that wasn't ideal cause I lacked the understanding of the game back then, as I was a xbow bot. But still at least I learned how to kite 24/7 (without attack move too). I probably wouldn't be the same player if I played otto.
You know the paragraph defend my point of view? You played like a bot, you learne one basic mechanic (kiting) and that exactly what i said (nilla xbow was pretty for that because you can spam them with nothing else to do). Otto is just the best at reaching pr 25 which is the most important because your can't realy learn before that point. When you are pr25, the true practise began, spam jan / abus and learn kitting :D (or pick an other civ, i have never said otto was the best for improve after pr 25, this is the best at the begining).
Kiting will be useful in 80% of situations while all in builds are just shit once you reach pr30+
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by iNcog »

flontier wrote:
iNcog wrote:Win by any means possible. Try to learn several means. Right now in AOE2 I'm trying to learn to open scouts, fast castle, but also douche and tower rush. honestly the troll strats are so much harder to win with than standard play
whats your nick in DE ? we could practise some games, i start playing recently :)
incog :)
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by Plantinator »

Yeah i dont rly feel like training some newbie with otto is the smartest choice since making vills is like the most basic thing in the game (if u play u real civ that is).
I would prob train someone as France since its like the most Nilla civ in the game and doesnt have unwinnable mu afaik.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

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Post by Kaiserklein »

chronique wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote: I didn't get my current micro from jan rushing. I got it from playing germany and basically spamming xbows on nilla lol. In hindsight that wasn't ideal cause I lacked the understanding of the game back then, as I was a xbow bot. But still at least I learned how to kite 24/7 (without attack move too). I probably wouldn't be the same player if I played otto.
You know the paragraph defend my point of view? You played like a bot, you learne one basic mechanic (kiting) and that exactly what i said (nilla xbow was pretty for that because you can spam them with nothing else to do). Otto is just the best at reaching pr 25 which is the most important because your can't realy learn before that point. When you are pr25, the true practise began, spam jan / abus and learn kitting :D (or pick an other civ, i have never said otto was the best for improve after pr 25, this is the best at the begining).
Nah. I was stuck at nilla pr 30 (tad captain back then) for a few months until I learned new civs. So it was not good.
I'm just saying that at least, my only strat made me micro. But like I said it didn't teach me how to adapt, or macro 3 resources, etc, so it wasn't too good and I'm sure I could have improved faster if I didn't bow spam.

Anyway, otto is way worse lol. It's braindead both mechanically and strategically. Especially if you're just gonna jan rush. Please stop telling people to play otto lol
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by lemmings121 »

Kaiserklein wrote: I mean, there isn't a german deck without 8 bows. It's one of these cards you should have in every single deck, it's not an option.
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I still remember this game, easiest game ever. broken RE map, no second hunt in 10 miles, and this guy didnt have 8bows in his deck.


8 bow is not optional!
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by chronique »

Kaiserklein wrote: Nah. I was stuck at nilla pr 30 (tad captain back then) for a few months until I learned new civs. So it was not good.
I'm just saying that at least, my only strat made me micro. But like I said it didn't teach me how to adapt, or macro 3 resources, etc, so it wasn't too good and I'm sure I could have improved faster if I didn't bow spam.

Anyway, otto is way worse lol. It's braindead both mechanically and strategically. Especially if you're just gonna jan rush. Please stop telling people to play otto lol
This is 100% what i said, playing like a bot until pr 25, then, learn the game lol. When you are pr 15 you dont care about adaptation or macro 3 ress lol
Lecastete wrote: Kiting will be useful in 80% of situations while all in builds are just shit once you reach pr30+
Again, 100% what i said, play full all in (full bot build is more accurate) is garbage when you are pr 30+ but is the best way when you are pr 15.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think it's okay to play like a bot until captain, but then you have to adapt if you want to improve.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by Kaiserklein »

chronique wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote: Nah. I was stuck at nilla pr 30 (tad captain back then) for a few months until I learned new civs. So it was not good.
I'm just saying that at least, my only strat made me micro. But like I said it didn't teach me how to adapt, or macro 3 resources, etc, so it wasn't too good and I'm sure I could have improved faster if I didn't bow spam.

Anyway, otto is way worse lol. It's braindead both mechanically and strategically. Especially if you're just gonna jan rush. Please stop telling people to play otto lol
This is 100% what i said, playing like a bot until pr 25, then, learn the game lol. When you are pr 15 you dont care about adaptation or macro 3 ress lol
Lecastete wrote: Kiting will be useful in 80% of situations while all in builds are just shit once you reach pr30+
Again, 100% what i said, play full all in (full bot build is more accurate) is garbage when you are pr 30+ but is the best way when you are pr 15.
I don't know what to tell you at this point lol. You're saying jan rushing your way to captain is a good idea, I'm saying it's a horrible idea. I got stuck for months because I did a stupid build over and over. If I knew good players back then (like on ESOC) I would have gone for real builds and improved way faster, for example like tabben did.
Actually, check how diarouga improved faster than me at start. While I was still spamming bows on nilla, he was nerding the match ups and watching recs on tad. So when he played he did real builds and improved.

Go tell someone to play otto until he reaches pr25, then tell him to switch to e.g france and stop being a bot. He'll just drop back to 2 lt because he didn't learn how to play aoe3.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by chronique »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think it's okay to play like a bot until captain, but then you have to adapt if you want to improve.
This is exactly what i said but kaiser are not agree, so because you are a more notorius player than me, maybe your word would be better understood.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ye, it's a complicated debate and I'm not sure there's an obvious answer.
On the one hand, you can probably reach pr25 with jan rush every game in a few weeks, while it would take way more time with a normal civ, but it will get harder later for sure.
It's a bit like going for one base builds at Starcraft II (which is what beginners should do imo). You'll learn the basics faster because the macro is much easier and you don't have to adapt but switching to macro play will be tough and take some time.
I guess motivation is the biggest factor. Some people don't want to be stuck in the low leagues/pr when they begin, and some don't like to become worse when they switch to macro play.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by flontier »

well no you say going for bot all in stuff like jan rush etc.. thats what people disagreeing with.
Spamming like a bot lame build such as double rax jan and bot build like a semi-ff are 2 very differents things. In one case the only ability you developp is your finger power by spamming the z key. While on the other you'll improve every basic mechanic overall.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by Hazza54321 »

lemmings121 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote: I mean, there isn't a german deck without 8 bows. It's one of these cards you should have in every single deck, it's not an option.
Image
I still remember this game, easiest game ever. broken RE map, no second hunt in 10 miles, and this guy didnt have 8bows in his deck.


8 bow is not optional!
how many hands did you use?
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by lemmings121 »

Hazza54321 wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote: I mean, there isn't a german deck without 8 bows. It's one of these cards you should have in every single deck, it's not an option.
Image
I still remember this game, easiest game ever. broken RE map, no second hunt in 10 miles, and this guy didnt have 8bows in his deck.


8 bow is not optional!
how many hands did you use?
I played full tryhard, couldnt lose this golden chance to get a egopost 3 years later.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by lemmings121 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Ye, it's a complicated debate and I'm not sure there's an obvious answer.
On the one hand, you can probably reach pr25 with jan rush every game in a few weeks, while it would take way more time with a normal civ, but it will get harder later for sure.
It's a bit like going for one base builds at Starcraft II (which is what beginners should do imo). You'll learn the basics faster because the macro is much easier and you don't have to adapt but switching to macro play will be tough and take some time.
I guess motivation is the biggest factor. Some people don't want to be stuck in the low leagues/pr when they begin, and some don't like to become worse when they switch to macro play.
Yes sc2 is a good comparison here imo. If you are gold league and try to copy serral you will take years to improve, you need to start with the basics to get a grasp of what the hell is going on in the game before doing the optimal highlevel build.

I think pure jan is like a sc one base allin, if you can get into top ~5% doing only jan rush builds, how can you say its a bad build? yeah, you wont break into the top players with it, but thats not really the goal of most people.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by chronique »

flontier wrote:well no you say going for bot all in stuff like jan rush etc.. thats what people disagreeing with.
Spamming like a bot lame build such as double rax jan and bot build like a semi-ff are 2 very differents things. In one case the only ability you developp is your finger power by spamming the z key. While on the other you'll improve every basic mechanic overall.
All in is just the most bot build and otto the most bot civ, spaming semi ff when you are pr 15 make no sense if you can't spam z key. And to be 100% honest double rax is not the best at first, the best at first is one rax jan build (you learn what timing mean and a mooving by 15 jan rushing), then 2 rax (you learn what a very strong timing is and what siege first / killing first), and when you are pr 25, you must pick an other civ, because now you know the very basic, what a timing is, what is "a" moov, you have conditioned your brain to play / see the game (something you don't when you train semi ff and fail because you can't macro and raid at the same time). Also by doing that, you will face better player faster which is good if you want improve.

When you learn something, you need to be focuse on one specific stuff, its true everywhere, in video game, in sport and in work.

I remember a debate between pro sc2 player, and there was consensus arround the fact than one base build is the best way too improve until master (which is better than pr 25), and then, learn the game.

Anyway, at this point arg are not realy worth it, we are not agree and that not a big deal!
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

lemmings121 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Ye, it's a complicated debate and I'm not sure there's an obvious answer.
On the one hand, you can probably reach pr25 with jan rush every game in a few weeks, while it would take way more time with a normal civ, but it will get harder later for sure.
It's a bit like going for one base builds at Starcraft II (which is what beginners should do imo). You'll learn the basics faster because the macro is much easier and you don't have to adapt but switching to macro play will be tough and take some time.
I guess motivation is the biggest factor. Some people don't want to be stuck in the low leagues/pr when they begin, and some don't like to become worse when they switch to macro play.
Yes sc2 is a good comparison here imo. If you are gold league and try to copy serral you will take years to improve, you need to start with the basics to get a grasp of what the hell is going on in the game before doing the optimal highlevel build.

I think pure jan is like a sc one base allin, if you can get into top ~5% doing only jan rush builds, how can you say its a bad build? yeah, you wont break into the top players with it, but thats not really the goal of most people.
I was thinking about it, and if jan rush is like a sc one base all in, then I guess it is a good way to improve as a beginner. If it's a photon rush though, it's not, because photon rushers are awful let's be honest.
I'm actually not sure which one it is.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chronique wrote:
flontier wrote:well no you say going for bot all in stuff like jan rush etc.. thats what people disagreeing with.
Spamming like a bot lame build such as double rax jan and bot build like a semi-ff are 2 very differents things. In one case the only ability you developp is your finger power by spamming the z key. While on the other you'll improve every basic mechanic overall.
All in is just the most bot build and otto the most bot civ, spaming semi ff when you are pr 15 make no sense if you can't spam z key. And to be 100% honest double rax is not the best at first, the best at first is one rax jan build (you learn what timing mean and a mooving by 15 jan rushing), then 2 rax (you learn what a very strong timing is and what siege first / killing first), and when you are pr 25, you must pick an other civ, because now you know the very basic, what a timing is, what is "a" moov, you have conditioned your brain to play / see the game (something you don't when you train semi ff and fail because you can't macro and raid at the same time). Also by doing that, you will face better player faster which is good if you want improve.

When you learn something, you need to be focuse on one specific stuff, its true everywhere, in video game, in sport and in work.

I remember a debate between pro sc2 player, and there was consensus arround the fact than one base build is the best way too improve until master (which is better than pr 25), and then, learn the game.

Anyway, at this point arg are not realy worth it, we are not agree and that not a big deal!
I think you should start to macro before master haha. I'd say you should macro when you reach diam 3 because it won't take a lot of time to get back to your cheeser level with macro play. If you reach master with one base builds only, you're never going to win macro games against masters.
Anyway, begining with 3 base builds (which is the equivalent of playing Port or Dutch in aoe3) is surely not the fastest way to improve.
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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by lemmings121 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Ye, it's a complicated debate and I'm not sure there's an obvious answer.
On the one hand, you can probably reach pr25 with jan rush every game in a few weeks, while it would take way more time with a normal civ, but it will get harder later for sure.
It's a bit like going for one base builds at Starcraft II (which is what beginners should do imo). You'll learn the basics faster because the macro is much easier and you don't have to adapt but switching to macro play will be tough and take some time.
I guess motivation is the biggest factor. Some people don't want to be stuck in the low leagues/pr when they begin, and some don't like to become worse when they switch to macro play.
Yes sc2 is a good comparison here imo. If you are gold league and try to copy serral you will take years to improve, you need to start with the basics to get a grasp of what the hell is going on in the game before doing the optimal highlevel build.

I think pure jan is like a sc one base allin, if you can get into top ~5% doing only jan rush builds, how can you say its a bad build? yeah, you wont break into the top players with it, but thats not really the goal of most people.
I was thinking about it, and if jan rush is like a sc one base all in, then I guess it is a good way to improve as a beginner. If it's a photon rush though, it's not, because photon rushers are awful let's be honest.
I'm actually not sure which one it is.
Right, maybe jan rushes isn't ideal as there is no macro, but imo most standard allin builds like a agressive spain ff should be ok to teach the basics.

Now in your opinion, what's the gameplan for that major level player to foccus and practice to make the miracle-tabben break through?

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Re: How do you counter the Germans

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

lemmings121 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
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I was thinking about it, and if jan rush is like a sc one base all in, then I guess it is a good way to improve as a beginner. If it's a photon rush though, it's not, because photon rushers are awful let's be honest.
I'm actually not sure which one it is.
Right, maybe jan rushes isn't ideal as there is no macro, but imo most standard allin builds like a agressive spain ff should be ok to teach the basics.

Now in your opinion, what's the gameplan for that major level player to foccus and practice to make the miracle-tabben break through?

spoiler
I'd say at major level you should go for builds which require good mechanics but not too much adaptation (as you can't focus on both). I think China is a good civ at that level, you need to play with 3 control groups, you need a good defense as you'll often get pressured, and you need to understand timings and your opponent's plan.
You can just go ff every game, and hit the same timing every game at the pr38- level (when you get the 6 musks from consulate), and it's just about execution.

That's how tabben managed to improve that fast, and honestly he's not the only one. I remember mongo10 improved very fast and reached top 8 quite fast (he actually used to be good before he became a bot somehow), and skirmisher is doing fine although he's not really a good player.
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