Xb/pike vs musk/huss

[dansil92]

I mean isnt 90% of the problem with halbs are their speed? Changdaos are considered decent purely just for the speed alone.

No, I dont think so. Halbs actually have terrible stats for their cost. They're obviously worse than musks at just dealing damage, and they dont even do much better than musks in melee mode.

Its easy to forget melee attacks are twice as fast so halbs have far superior dps to musks. The speed is legitimately the primary issue with halbs

Halbs and skull knights are the only 4 speed melee units as far as I know

[Imperial Noob]

Ditto Landsknechts and Flail Elephants

[RefluxSemantic]

I mean isnt 90% of the problem with halbs are their speed? Changdaos are considered decent purely just for the speed alone.

No, I dont think so. Halbs actually have terrible stats for their cost. They're obviously worse than musks at just dealing damage, and they dont even do much better than musks in melee mode.

Idk Halbs are only 25 resources more than changdaos for twice the base damage, 50 vs 35 damage to cav and 2/3rd more hp. I think that is pretty fair.

I think the biggest downside is speed

halbs are 1.6 times as expensive as chandaos actually. Though maybe chandaos are not costed appropriately, if you take the cost of a banner army and divide it by six it's 1.4 times as expensive.

[dansil92]

Ditto Landsknechts and Flail Elephants

Oh yeah... failephants. Man those things just cannot catch a break huh?

[Imperial Noob]

Ditto Landsknechts and Flail Elephants

Oh yeah... failephants. Man those things just cannot catch a break huh?

They need +0.50 speed and a high positive multiplier vs infantry (5 siege damage in melee, when an abus gun shoots for 40?)

[dansil92]

Its 10 on ep. 5 speed flails when?

[_RDX_]

I guess speed is not the only issue of halbs, It is also because it is an age 3 unit and other units seem to shine better for their standard in that age. They don't counter artillery like goons do . A couple of volleys from falconets can deal with the skirm halb composition. But of course, halbs are effective for their 120 res cost, they just need more speed.

[helln00]

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I mean isnt 90% of the problem with halbs are their speed? Changdaos are considered decent purely just for the speed alone.

No, I dont think so. Halbs actually have terrible stats for their cost. They're obviously worse than musks at just dealing damage, and they dont even do much better than musks in melee mode.

Idk Halbs are only 25 resources more than changdaos for twice the base damage, 50 vs 35 damage to cav and 2/3rd more hp. I think that is pretty fair.

I think the biggest downside is speed

halbs are 1.6 times as expensive as chandaos actually. Though maybe chandaos are not costed appropriately, if you take the cost of a banner army and divide it by six it's 1.4 times as expensive.

Assuming that methodology, than that still works out to 90 resources per changdao, which still only makes it 1/3 more expensive. I still think that the speed is the biggest factor.

[helln00]

Its 10 on ep. 5 speed flails when?

Would it be more fun it we give them higher Hp and range resist instead? Could make them the rams of aoe3, along with the actual iro ram. Slow but soaks up all the range damage

[dansil92]

They're 500 hp, 50rr. If some noob can't kite you can actually use flails instead of sowars with sepoy, especially fun vs dutch

[helln00]

500? their base hp is 325 according to the wiki and since they are supposed to be a siege unit give it the same range resist as a falc, 75rr and maybe 600-700 hp as base.

[dansil92]

I thought it was 500. Man those things just keep disappointing

[aligator92]

Is this true? The wiki puts them both at 0.10 melee resist.

The wiki also says that War Wagons have 20 range

[dansil92]

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On a side note more interesting comparison would be skirm harlb vs Musk Huss

ill just answer it. skrim halb would shit on musk huss. if you assume perfect micro, but even in a real game skirm halb would win vs musk huss. but why make halb when you can go goons, which hardcounters musk huss far better.

I think skirm pike would basically do a better job at beating musk huss. Pikes are arguably better units than halberdiers.

theres no way skirm pike is better than halb skirm, not only vs musk huss but in general. you pretty much never can fight halbs straight up with huss. Halbs are beastly in melee combat, while pikes arent.

i agree. the only advantage that pikes have is the speed, which can prove significant in some situations

Id have the run the numbers again, but against cav pikes have far better stats for their cost than halberdeers do.

no

Well, a veteran pikeman deals 48 damage per hit to cav, a halberdeer 50. Halberdeers are actually 40% more expensive. They do have 40% more HP and I know comparing stats like these don't give the full picture, but holy shit halbs are bad at doing what they should be doing.

halb at 20% melee resistance while the pike at 10%, which makes it much better against cav

Is this true? The wiki puts them both at 0.10 melee resist.

Missed this: 20 resist is a very recent change to halbs on ep

[Kaiserklein]

Well, a veteran pikeman deals 48 damage per hit to cav, a halberdeer 50. Halberdeers are actually 40% more expensive. They do have 40% more HP and I know comparing stats like these don't give the full picture, but holy shit halbs are bad at doing what they should be doing.

Yeah can't maths like that, you can try fighting equal investments of halbs or pikes and you'll see halbs don't do worse vs cav.

I mean isnt 90% of the problem with halbs are their speed? Changdaos are considered decent purely just for the speed alone.

No, I dont think so. Halbs actually have terrible stats for their cost. They're obviously worse than musks at just dealing damage, and they dont even do much better than musks in melee mode.

What, 25 damage vs everything is a lot, much more than a musk. If they had 5 speed halbs would definitely be strong. Speed is the main downside, not stats.

[chronique]

I don't understand why halbardier still 4 speed on EP, i mean, this unit is usless because he walk like my grandfather (which is dead). 4.5 should be resonable i guess

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't understand why halbardier still 4 speed on EP, i mean, this unit is usless because he walk like my grandfather (which is dead). 4.5 should be resonable i guess

Halbs are not useless atm. Sometimes as Dutch you want to train them when you don't have enough anti cav.

[chronique]

Halbs are not useless atm. Sometimes as Dutch you want to train them when you don't have enough anti cav.

Realy?, i have never see this unit in regular game, maybe 5 halb againt jap but no more.

[Rohbrot]

Halbs are really useless ngl. 4.5 speed would make them better / op?

[Garja]

You can play around halb speed weakness but ye 4.5 speed would straight up make the unit legit.

[dansil92]

Halbs are not useless atm. Sometimes as Dutch you want to train them when you don't have enough anti cav.

Realy?, i have never see this unit in regular game, maybe 5 halb againt jap but no more.

If you lose a stable as Dutch, yeah sometimes you have to make 5, 10 of em while you get your stable(s) back up

I do agree that 4.5 base speed would be a reasonable buff across the board. I dont think it would be op since
Dopps, jpk, samurai, etc.
Are all 4.5 speed and none of them are op. I would just point out caution regarding speed scaling with dutch, though, dopps do this potentially too so should be ok

[Kaiserklein]

4.5 speed and 20% resist was the obvious way to make the unit somewhat viable. Even then you'd rather just go goons as they're much more versatile, but it would make it okay in some niche situations (e.g the 8 halbs shipment, or maybe vs china or ger)

[Jaeger]

I know this has been suggested before, but I really think EP should look into making (non-veteran) halbs available in age 2 for Dutch.

no

yes

[dansil92]

This has been a thoroughly civil and productive discussion

[iCourt]

If aoe2 willing to boost Teutonic Knight speed several times we should at least give it a try for halbs after all these years.