Xb/pike vs musk/huss

User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by Garja »

skirm halb is actually good vs musk/cav. Skirm goons is too but vs like japan nagis tank a lot and you can't really kite away.
Image Image Image
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by RefluxSemantic »

lordraphael wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:On a side note more interesting comparison would be skirm harlb vs Musk Huss
ill just answer it. skrim halb would shit on musk huss. if you assume perfect micro, but even in a real game skirm halb would win vs musk huss. but why make halb when you can go goons, which hardcounters musk huss far better.
I think skirm pike would basically do a better job at beating musk huss. Pikes are arguably better units than halberdiers.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I feel like part of this shouldn't be about the straight up fights, but about the utility that the hussar's mobility offers. The musk huss player can be raiding constantly, which is something the xbow pike player cant do. The snaring ability of the hussars are pretty nice too, as this means that if you win a fight you will win it very decisively, while if you are losing the fight you can just walk away. I feel like this is a bigger deal than it may seem to be at the surface.

For xbow/pike vs musk huss this isn't super relevant, but I feel like musk xbow should actually beat musk huss in a straight up fight. This mobility is imo part of why you end up going for pure musk rather than musk xbow. Once you start mixing in xbows, your opponent can basically mix in hussars without making his army much weaker in the straight up engagement, which means he can basically enjoy all the mobility benefits with no drawback.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

RefluxSemantic wrote:I feel like part of this shouldn't be about the straight up fights, but about the utility that the hussar's mobility offers. The musk huss player can be raiding constantly, which is something the xbow pike player cant do. The snaring ability of the hussars are pretty nice too, as this means that if you win a fight you will win it very decisively, while if you are losing the fight you can just walk away. I feel like this is a bigger deal than it may seem to be at the surface.

For xbow/pike vs musk huss this isn't super relevant, but I feel like musk xbow should actually beat musk huss in a straight up fight. This mobility is imo part of why you end up going for pure musk rather than musk xbow. Once you start mixing in xbows, your opponent can basically mix in hussars without making his army much weaker in the straight up engagement, which means he can basically enjoy all the mobility benefits with no drawback.
Bows are nice in musk wars because you have the bow advantage and you can kite then but I'm quite sure bow/musk loses to musk/huss. The huss are going to tank a lot and kill some bows while bows don't really dps more than musks.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by RefluxSemantic »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:I feel like part of this shouldn't be about the straight up fights, but about the utility that the hussar's mobility offers. The musk huss player can be raiding constantly, which is something the xbow pike player cant do. The snaring ability of the hussars are pretty nice too, as this means that if you win a fight you will win it very decisively, while if you are losing the fight you can just walk away. I feel like this is a bigger deal than it may seem to be at the surface.

For xbow/pike vs musk huss this isn't super relevant, but I feel like musk xbow should actually beat musk huss in a straight up fight. This mobility is imo part of why you end up going for pure musk rather than musk xbow. Once you start mixing in xbows, your opponent can basically mix in hussars without making his army much weaker in the straight up engagement, which means he can basically enjoy all the mobility benefits with no drawback.
Bows are nice in musk wars because you have the bow advantage and you can kite then but I'm quite sure bow/musk loses to musk/huss. The huss are going to tank a lot and kill some bows while bows don't really dps more than musks.
I feel like in that scenario you can just continuously kite the huss without taking much fire from the opposing hussars. Unless you have a very large amount of xbows (which means they have a lot of hussars), then it might change again. I feel like for example 30 musk 10 xbows should beat 30 musk 5 huss.
User avatar
Canada dansil92
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2231
Joined: Nov 3, 2018
ESO: dansil92

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by dansil92 »

Controversially i do like mixing a handful halbs in with my skirms against Aztec, sometimes Russia, when playing as Dutch. Annoying to micro vs coss/coyo so its my lazy answer.

I think the answer to musk/cav VS. Melee inf/ranged inf really comes down to how good the RI is
A good example is yamabushi-yumi, which dumps on pretty much everything because both units are just outclassing musks and hussars
Image
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:I feel like part of this shouldn't be about the straight up fights, but about the utility that the hussar's mobility offers. The musk huss player can be raiding constantly, which is something the xbow pike player cant do. The snaring ability of the hussars are pretty nice too, as this means that if you win a fight you will win it very decisively, while if you are losing the fight you can just walk away. I feel like this is a bigger deal than it may seem to be at the surface.

For xbow/pike vs musk huss this isn't super relevant, but I feel like musk xbow should actually beat musk huss in a straight up fight. This mobility is imo part of why you end up going for pure musk rather than musk xbow. Once you start mixing in xbows, your opponent can basically mix in hussars without making his army much weaker in the straight up engagement, which means he can basically enjoy all the mobility benefits with no drawback.
Bows are nice in musk wars because you have the bow advantage and you can kite then but I'm quite sure bow/musk loses to musk/huss. The huss are going to tank a lot and kill some bows while bows don't really dps more than musks.
In big numbers musk/bow should beat musk/huss quite clearly. In small numbers probably the dps of huss exceeds the xbow one.
Image Image Image
Germany lordraphael
Pro Player
EWTNWC LAN SilverAdvanced Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 2549
Joined: Jun 28, 2015

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by lordraphael »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
lordraphael wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:On a side note more interesting comparison would be skirm harlb vs Musk Huss
ill just answer it. skrim halb would shit on musk huss. if you assume perfect micro, but even in a real game skirm halb would win vs musk huss. but why make halb when you can go goons, which hardcounters musk huss far better.
I think skirm pike would basically do a better job at beating musk huss. Pikes are arguably better units than halberdiers.
theres no way skirm pike is better than halb skirm, not only vs musk huss but in general. you pretty much never can fight halbs straight up with huss. Halbs are beastly in melee combat, while pikes arent.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
User avatar
Latvia harcha
Gendarme
Posts: 5136
Joined: Jul 2, 2015
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by harcha »

lordraphael wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Show hidden quotes
I think skirm pike would basically do a better job at beating musk huss. Pikes are arguably better units than halberdiers.
theres no way skirm pike is better than halb skirm, not only vs musk huss but in general. you pretty much never can fight halbs straight up with huss. Halbs are beastly in melee combat, while pikes arent.
i agree. the only advantage that pikes have is the speed, which can prove significant in some situations
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by Jaeger »

I know this has been suggested before, but I really think EP should look into making (non-veteran) halbs available in age 2 for Dutch.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Latvia harcha
Gendarme
Posts: 5136
Joined: Jul 2, 2015
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by harcha »

ovi12 wrote:I know this has been suggested before, but I really think EP should look into making (non-veteran) halbs available in age 2 for Dutch.
no
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by RefluxSemantic »

harcha wrote:
lordraphael wrote:
Show hidden quotes
theres no way skirm pike is better than halb skirm, not only vs musk huss but in general. you pretty much never can fight halbs straight up with huss. Halbs are beastly in melee combat, while pikes arent.
i agree. the only advantage that pikes have is the speed, which can prove significant in some situations
Id have the run the numbers again, but against cav pikes have far better stats for their cost than halberdeers do.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by Kaiserklein »

Nah that's just wrong. Even vs cav I'm pretty sure pikes aren't more cost efficient than halbs. And against any other unit halbs are better as they actually deal damage. Plus you don't have to tech vet halbs. Saying skirm / vet pike would be better than skirm / halb just can't be right.
The only advantages pikes have over halbs are basically the speed and siege.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by kevinitalien »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
harcha wrote:
Show hidden quotes
i agree. the only advantage that pikes have is the speed, which can prove significant in some situations
Id have the run the numbers again, but against cav pikes have far better stats for their cost than halberdeers do.
no
Image
Image
Image Image
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by RefluxSemantic »

kevinitalien wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Id have the run the numbers again, but against cav pikes have far better stats for their cost than halberdeers do.
no
Well, a veteran pikeman deals 48 damage per hit to cav, a halberdeer 50. Halberdeers are actually 40% more expensive. They do have 40% more HP and I know comparing stats like these don't give the full picture, but holy shit halbs are bad at doing what they should be doing.
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by kevinitalien »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
kevinitalien wrote:
Show hidden quotes
no
Well, a veteran pikeman deals 48 damage per hit to cav, a halberdeer 50. Halberdeers are actually 40% more expensive. They do have 40% more HP and I know comparing stats like these don't give the full picture, but holy shit halbs are bad at doing what they should be doing.
halb at 20% melee resistance while the pike at 10%, which makes it much better against cav
Image
Image
Image Image
No Flag helln00
Howdah
Posts: 1410
Joined: Jan 28, 2017
ESO: helln00

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by helln00 »

I mean isnt 90% of the problem with halbs are their speed? Changdaos are considered decent purely just for the speed alone.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by RefluxSemantic »

kevinitalien wrote:
RefluxSemantic wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Well, a veteran pikeman deals 48 damage per hit to cav, a halberdeer 50. Halberdeers are actually 40% more expensive. They do have 40% more HP and I know comparing stats like these don't give the full picture, but holy shit halbs are bad at doing what they should be doing.
halb at 20% melee resistance while the pike at 10%, which makes it much better against cav
Is this true? The wiki puts them both at 0.10 melee resist.
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by kevinitalien »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
kevinitalien wrote:
Show hidden quotes
halb at 20% melee resistance while the pike at 10%, which makes it much better against cav
Is this true? The wiki puts them both at 0.10 melee resist.
I just checked in game so yes
Image
Image
Image Image
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by Imperial Noob »

Halbs should either have changdao speed, or be cheaper. 50f 60c would be a better price for what they can actually do.
And an x3 vs cav!
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by RefluxSemantic »

helln00 wrote:I mean isnt 90% of the problem with halbs are their speed? Changdaos are considered decent purely just for the speed alone.
No, I dont think so. Halbs actually have terrible stats for their cost. They're obviously worse than musks at just dealing damage, and they dont even do much better than musks in melee mode.
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by kevinitalien »

Imperial Noob wrote:Halbs should either have changdao speed, or be cheaper. 50f 60c would be a better price for what they can actually do.
it's worth its price, it's just that you can have goons instead, so it's rarely used
Image
Image
Image Image
User avatar
Holy See Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 958
Joined: Feb 29, 2016
Location: Well hello DEre

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by Imperial Noob »

kevinitalien wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:Halbs should either have changdao speed, or be cheaper. 50f 60c would be a better price for what they can actually do.
it's worth its price, it's just that you can have goons instead, so it's rarely used
So nerf goons instead?
User avatar
French Southern Territories kevinitalien
Lancer
Posts: 669
Joined: Oct 31, 2015
ESO: KEVINITALIEN
Clan: PLOP

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by kevinitalien »

Imperial Noob wrote:
kevinitalien wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:Halbs should either have changdao speed, or be cheaper. 50f 60c would be a better price for what they can actually do.
it's worth its price, it's just that you can have goons instead, so it's rarely used
So nerf goons instead?
it's already done, but in any case the goons are more mobile and shoot from a distance, so it's much more efficient
Image
Image
Image Image
No Flag helln00
Howdah
Posts: 1410
Joined: Jan 28, 2017
ESO: helln00

Re: Xb/pike vs musk/huss

Post by helln00 »

RefluxSemantic wrote:
helln00 wrote:I mean isnt 90% of the problem with halbs are their speed? Changdaos are considered decent purely just for the speed alone.
No, I dont think so. Halbs actually have terrible stats for their cost. They're obviously worse than musks at just dealing damage, and they dont even do much better than musks in melee mode.
Idk Halbs are only 25 resources more than changdaos for twice the base damage, 50 vs 35 damage to cav and 2/3rd more hp. I think that is pretty fair.

I think the biggest downside is speed

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV