India vs Russia or azzy

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India vs Russia or azzy

Post by crankifzz »

I play RE. pr 27 highest(probably a 1lt on EP)
I think India vs Russia and azzy are sort of same.
BC you have to hold early pressure at first and boom until you are able to push out.
but how to hold the early pressure is always confused me.

I used to do 300e(otto consulate)/ wood trickle after hitting colo (and I have no clue what should I send for third shipment)
market up and build consulate asap(do I need both market and consulate?if I dont do consulate,what should I send first?and upgrade all tech in market as well?)
make gurka first and add zamb after.
And I found it is probably too slow.(or not?need advice here)
BC by the time you send big trickle, Russia probably outmass you and right click you under TC and aggro.
yea you can probably hold first or second pressure by sending mm and sentry.
but Russua can still remass cossack and strelets ez and pressure you.
you have to hold several times of push and only need to mess up one time that cost you a game.
even you win one or two even three four fight
Russia is winning as long as you dont have enuf mass to push out. BC you will run out of res in base eventually.

So does anyone give me some tips how to win this MU? thks
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by Astaroth »

I think there are some recs of India vs Russia on this site, of (I think) especially miggo (India Bot). They are on EP, but RE shouldn't be that diferent.

Generally, you probably want to defend with some wall segments, ghurka/sepoy and eventually age soon-ish if possible.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by crankifzz »

Astaroth wrote:I think there are some recs of India vs Russia on this site, of (I think) especially miggo (India Bot). They are on EP, but RE shouldn't be that diferent.

Generally, you probably want to defend with some wall segments, ghurka/sepoy and eventually age soon-ish if possible.
but India in this patch is suck and you cant play past patch rec on ep
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by Astaroth »

Didn't you say you play on RE?
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by crankifzz »

Astaroth wrote:Didn't you say you play on RE?
yea but you ask me for watch ep rp dont you?
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by Ghost_Imperator »

I’d say that a card for TC will guarantee you a stopping of a rush, since 135 att + Agra are just scary for most of the rush civs. No doubt this reflects on your eco as you won’t send distributivism, but even regardless that fact Indian eco is better than Aztecs one and, probably, Russian.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

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Post by amiggo1999 »

You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

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Post by amiggo1999 »

And I'd avoid cm. If your opponent adapts and ages or gets stagecoaxh for example, you sent the card for nothing and will pretty much auto-lose. It's only good if you can get ridiculous pops like aiz in that situation ^^
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by _RDX_ »

Considering India and Russia goes to age 2 in an almost similar time and also making sure that the russian player is going for a forward blockhouse, I would go for an in base agra with a market and all age 1 ups and shipping 4 sowars as the first shipment. It works for me all time. You'll have your 7 sepoys and 4 sowars at one point in your base which can punish his 5 coss and 10 strelets/5musks. If he has only one blockhouse, i would try to push and siege it down, cause whatever he's gonna make is gonna die. If he has 2 blockhouses however, I wouldn't try to push. Keeping the monks alive is so important, they absolutely rekt strelets. The 2nd card can be Foreign Logging or 600 w. That's considering how much pressure he has applied on you. If you lost some vills, Foreign Logging sounds good, else it can be 600 w which lets you to get stable and consulate asap and also age 2 market ups or even a TP. Can switch sepoy sowar to gurk zamb, both of them sound scary for russia. I prefer sepoy sowar though, sowar does good vs both ruskets and strelets even without the cards but you'll be needing some zambs to prevent cossack raids. 300 exp as the third card sounds decent and get 3 gardeners and then you should be able to win the game from there with some good fights or you can also age. India age 2 > Russia age 2 and India age 3 is also > Russia age 3 on RE tbh. vs Azzy, i'm not sure whether it really works cause I've lost so many times to their lame FI and seaboom. Can't make too many sowars vs their rush. They have a better anticav unit- pumas and coyote do really well vs sowars too. You can't make too many sepoys either cause maces decimate them. You'll have to lose the agra to give yourself some time. You have enough eco advantage to go age 3 though. Might wanna go for disciplined sepoys and gurkhas with mansabdars and some mahouts in such a scenario.
oranges.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by crankifzz »

amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
tks I'll try
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by amiggo1999 »

crankifzz wrote:
amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
tks I'll try
One thing I didn't mention before, is that you need very good defense. The 5musk/10strel + 5coss will come very early. So to defend vs this properly you'll want the agra super close to your tc, some walls to make entrance into your base really awkward, and early units out. This means you don't want to get past tier 1 techs when you hit age 2 before 600w comes in. While sepoy as first batch can also work, I prefer getting a gurkha batch + meelee mm from tc. Together with tc & agra fire + your explorers you should be able to get a good trade.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by louis293 »

at my very modest level (pr 21 on RE and i play mainly aztecs and russia) i think both of this match ups are clearly india favor, u have very good defensive possibilities (cm, agra, consulate minute men, don't need a lot of food, good explorers to figth mace and strelets), against aztec FI u can just FI urumi yourself (they rape skulls and kill mace easily, the explorer won't be enougth to deal with a mass of age 4 urumi and u can also use great bombard from consulate. India simply outboom and outscale easily aztec and russia (if u avoid going very late game agaisnt russia).
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by crankifzz »

amiggo1999 wrote:
crankifzz wrote:
amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
tks I'll try
One thing I didn't mention before, is that you need very good defense. The 5musk/10strel + 5coss will come very early. So to defend vs this properly you'll want the agra super close to your tc, some walls to make entrance into your base really awkward, and early units out. This means you don't want to get past tier 1 techs when you hit age 2 before 600w comes in. While sepoy as first batch can also work, I prefer getting a gurkha batch + meelee mm from tc. Together with tc & agra fire + your explorers you should be able to get a good trade.
so i only need to upgrade 5% all res and make a batch sepoy as usual ,right?
and follow up rest of tier one market up after 600w.
so when is tier2 up?when I have unspent resource?
btw in some re map you dont have second hunt even gold mine nearby your TC,so you have to place agra out position
any advice?or only you can do is outplay ur opponent?

thanks
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by fei123456 »

Aztec has insane early siege, but russia doesn't.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by Hawk_Girl »

amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
doesnt india beat russia late age 2?
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by rsy »

Hawk_Girl wrote:
amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
doesnt india beat russia late age 2?
They do unless russia does the 2 blockhouses strelet spam, pulling back to bh choke everytime u try to push with sowars. In that case like miggo said u do need to age
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by chronique »

Russia is not the strongest civ in late age2? with card like boyard.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by amiggo1999 »

As stated: vs what most russ players do musk + coss + strel, you can play age 2 with gurkha + zamb and kite opponent to death. @somp has changed my view about this MU, since he goes very heavy strelet, and while you'd think you can just spam sowar vs that, in my experience you'll never kill the mass russia is able to field. He can pull his units back to his fb when he sees your cav is ready to engage, and your sowars won't do shit. Even if sowars only take 2 hits (when carded) to kill strelets, you won't get a good trade, as long as he pulls back to his bh in time. That's why vs that kind of play I think you have to age and get mahouts.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by amiggo1999 »

crankifzz wrote:
amiggo1999 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
One thing I didn't mention before, is that you need very good defense. The 5musk/10strel + 5coss will come very early. So to defend vs this properly you'll want the agra super close to your tc, some walls to make entrance into your base really awkward, and early units out. This means you don't want to get past tier 1 techs when you hit age 2 before 600w comes in. While sepoy as first batch can also work, I prefer getting a gurkha batch + meelee mm from tc. Together with tc & agra fire + your explorers you should be able to get a good trade.
so i only need to upgrade 5% all res and make a batch sepoy as usual ,right?
and follow up rest of tier one market up after 600w.
so when is tier2 up?when I have unspent resource?
btw in some re map you dont have second hunt even gold mine nearby your TC,so you have to place agra out position
any advice?or only you can do is outplay ur opponent?

thanks
Usually get all tier 1 ups while aging, then you can get 2nd food and coin upgrade with or after 600w. Imp bur is obviously great when you can squeeze it in, but often you'll need those ress to be able to defend properly. When you don't have proper ress, you have to go for an early timing with the intention of nuking his bh imo.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

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Post by WickedCossack »

amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
IIRC the important thing is to be able to get out a solid first batch of units and still have sentry mm potential. Turns out you can still do it with double trickle first if you skip market and market techs in transition. It's quite nice as you can't always guarantee the 600w can be gathered and fully utilised immediately vs the 10 strel 5 coss push, especially if you have gone market and techs in transition.

You can then follow up with 600w to smash out all the skipped market techs and prep the consulate for the 300 export follow up. I've found the net eco from this is still greater (trickle will be better than the 5/10/15% boosts) and it's also very safe as you have tons of res to defend upon aging.

The trap that everyone fell into, myself included, 1 to 2 years ago when we had the mass India vs Russian games was basically being ridiculously greedy and trying to get the trickle sent AND as many market techs in transition. You then get promptly stomped by a well played russian start and are behind the rest of the game and/or just dead.

Both this and your build seem fine to use (they will have different timings on their military spikes) but I just wanted to stay the trickle is actually still a viable first colonial shipment here with this adapation. It did seem bad for a bit, even I shipped 600w first in a couple of games last year in this MU but once you change the build to shore up its weakness it's back on the menu! :P
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by amiggo1999 »

WickedCossack wrote:
amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
IIRC the important thing is to be able to get out a solid first batch of units and still have sentry mm potential. Turns out you can still do it with double trickle first if you skip market and market techs in transition. It's quite nice as you can't always guarantee the 600w can be gathered and fully utilised immediately vs the 10 strel 5 coss push, especially if you have gone market and techs in transition.

You can then follow up with 600w to smash out all the skipped market techs and prep the consulate for the 300 export follow up. I've found the net eco from this is still greater (trickle will be better than the 5/10/15% boosts) and it's also very safe as you have tons of res to defend upon aging.

The trap that everyone fell into, myself included, 1 to 2 years ago when we had the mass India vs Russian games was basically being ridiculously greedy and trying to get the trickle sent AND as many market techs in transition. You then get promptly stomped by a well played russian start and are behind the rest of the game and/or just dead.

Both this and your build seem fine to use (they will have different timings on their military spikes) but I just wanted to stay the trickle is actually still a viable first colonial shipment here with this adapation. It did seem bad for a bit, even I shipped 600w first in a couple of games last year in this MU but once you change the build to shore up its weakness it's back on the menu! :P
Interesting approach, I guess this should work too yea. Gotta try it ^^
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by Ghost_Imperator »

chronique wrote:Russia is not the strongest civ in late age2? with card like boyard.
I think Japan is the strongest, probably Britain. Russia is really good in late colonial too, though.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by crankifzz »

WickedCossack wrote:
amiggo1999 wrote:You can watch replays of past ep versions. There is a setting when you launch EP for that. Generally (unless you know what you're doing) I think you should always start with 600w (instead of exp or trickle) and then get your cons + stable from that. Follow it up woth 300exp (get vills if russ is passive, other wise cav and or mm), and then 600c which you can use either to mass or age. Imo the way most ppl play russia you can afford just massing in age 2 and winning, but vs somebody who spams tons of strelets you have to age in order to win the game. You can use the same bo vs aztec aggro play, but it's harder to age vs them in my experience.
IIRC the important thing is to be able to get out a solid first batch of units and still have sentry mm potential. Turns out you can still do it with double trickle first if you skip market and market techs in transition. It's quite nice as you can't always guarantee the 600w can be gathered and fully utilised immediately vs the 10 strel 5 coss push, especially if you have gone market and techs in transition.

You can then follow up with 600w to smash out all the skipped market techs and prep the consulate for the 300 export follow up. I've found the net eco from this is still greater (trickle will be better than the 5/10/15% boosts) and it's also very safe as you have tons of res to defend upon aging.

The trap that everyone fell into, myself included, 1 to 2 years ago when we had the mass India vs Russian games was basically being ridiculously greedy and trying to get the trickle sent AND as many market techs in transition. You then get promptly stomped by a well played russian start and are behind the rest of the game and/or just dead.

Both this and your build seem fine to use (they will have different timings on their military spikes) but I just wanted to stay the trickle is actually still a viable first colonial shipment here with this adapation. It did seem bad for a bit, even I shipped 600w first in a couple of games last year in this MU but once you change the build to shore up its weakness it's back on the menu! :P
so the BO you suggest is :big trickle/600w/300e
no market up during transition due to have a nice first batch for defense
and use 600w to catch up all skipped market up as well as consulate
so 300e for 4v priority?or 3huss priority?
also first batch is gurka?or sepoy works too?
thanks
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by amiggo1999 »

I think Wickedcossack's build is better for late age 2 play, while the 600w/300exp/600c allows you to age up faster or hit a timing sooner.
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Re: India vs Russia or azzy

Post by Kaiserklein »

chronique wrote:Russia is not the strongest civ in late age2? with card like boyard.
Think with every unit type, 3 cav upgrades, very strong infantry units, lower reliance on mapcontrol, india might be the best late colonial civ.
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