How to play Iro vs Japan? (on EP)

[_NT_sven]

Doubts:
1. If Japan goes for the cheap shrine card first and then Yumi+Wall during the colonial, Iro can hardly break into their base in Age 2, especially in cases where you don't have the 100w spawn. Taking down shrines outside is fair, but Iro's own economy cannot really match up against Japan in the long term.

2. Hence usually Iro players go for Age 3 with 5 vill/800res or its reversal. However in such cases Japan can follow up quickly as well and send 2 flaming arrows as their first shipment, and Iro can hardly cause enough havoc before that shipment if the Japan player is good at building the defense line.

3. Without the means to kill the arrows in Japan's own base, Iro can only go about sieging more shrines. But Japan's eco would be good enough at that time to neglect the negative effect of this. Then Iro would get outmassed and GG.

This is what happens to my regular games as Iro vs. Japan. Something like shrine card - 600w- 4vil (or without) - 600c - 2 flaming arrows and I do not know how to counter it. I wonder which part of the above logic goes wrong and would appreciate any advice. Thanks :)

Edit: I am talking about 'normal' maps such as Manchac where you can't go for TP boom effectively and where you do not have big treasures.

[voigt1240]

The following is from our lord and savior Goodspeeds Iro guide
Vs Japan:
2 TPs and both vill shipments, then swarm him with units in mid colonial. Kill shrines around the
map with 5 toma from the very start.

I wonder if his guide is still up to date though. if someone would be so kind as to clarify that.

[harcha]

Yeah, generally as Iro / Sioux / Aztec / Otto (low eco civs) you really want to get a stagecoach in a situation where your rush is likely to fail. If map is without a good trade line it becomes difficult.

[Rohbrot]

After 10 mins japan is just....

[[Armag] diarouga]

Doubts:
1. If Japan goes for the cheap shrine card first and then Yumi+Wall during the colonial, Iro can hardly break into their base in Age 2, especially in cases where you don't have the 100w spawn. Taking down shrines outside is fair, but Iro's own economy cannot really match up against Japan in the long term.

2. Hence usually Iro players go for Age 3 with 5 vill/800res or its reversal. However in such cases Japan can follow up quickly as well and send 2 flaming arrows as their first shipment, and Iro can hardly cause enough havoc before that shipment if the Japan player is good at building the defense line.

3. Without the means to kill the arrows in Japan's own base, Iro can only go about sieging more shrines. But Japan's eco would be good enough at that time to neglect the negative effect of this. Then Iro would get outmassed and GG.

This is what happens to my regular games as Iro vs. Japan. Something like shrine card - 600w- 4vil (or without) - 600c - 2 flaming arrows and I do not know how to counter it. I wonder which part of the above logic goes wrong and would appreciate any advice. Thanks :)

Edit: I am talking about 'normal' maps such as Manchac where you can't go for TP boom effectively and where you do not have big treasures.

1. You indeed can't beat Japan in age 2 if he goes for walls. However, you can semi ff and kill shrines while taking the TP line and outboom.

2. Hum nah, they stay longer in colo. Like 5v/600w/800res or 5v/4kanyas/800res. And you can snipe the flaming arrows with skirm/goon tbh, they're not that strong

[Astaroth]

There were some tourney games of this MU in which Iro did really well. What feels like a solid BO, at least when Japan walls on TP maps:

Go greedy semi FF (5v, TPs into stagecoach). Going FB is probably too risky with the age2 travois, but you should build a forward WH once in age3. Then mass FP and kanya (don't really need many or even any musket riders early on) with map control, send 1200 res early age3. Siege shrines around the map, poke a bit with FPs, don't overcommit. Then depending on what he does, go for a timing push with a mass of FP/kanya or (if mass walls) maybe stay back/mass, maybe go age4 (not sure about the last part).

Risks:
- make sure he doesn't club rush. If he does, play age2 and win
- if he sieges your TPs in age2, this either means he makes only few units (then make a few aenna and/or toma to defend them) or he goes full age2 play (which is good for you because then he won't have flaming arrows, age3 upgraded units etc.)

[_NT_sven]

Wow there are lots of inspirations here, thank you.

But the conclusions all imply that stagecoach is a must? I mean without it (some maps don't really allow) it's still a hard matchup?

[dansil92]

I am definitely gonna be flamed for this but i realllly like mantlets in this matchup. With 1000+ ranged hp and a good amount of siege they're kind of exactly what you need to crack a japan base. Mixing with prowlers, kanya, its been really successful for me. 5 amd 4 shipments is usually plenty as its better not to have to train them

[harcha]

i feel like mantlets are underused (maybe for good reason) which makes it hard for the average player to gauge how good they are

[dansil92]

i feel like mantlets are underused (maybe for good reason) which makes it hard for the average player to gauge how good they are

They're very slow, short ranged and so they are bad in open skirmishes. But the 5 shipment is 5000 ranged hp with no real ranged counters, and they're ranged attack is 25 (same as a sepoy) so if you can force a fight with them in close quarters they're actually really quite good, and really helpful at knocking down a couple of buildings japan is using as a pseudo wall.

[Garja]

I'd rather have 4rams vs Japan. Either to spread them on the map to kill shrines or to siege base while trading skirm vs yumi (so that you don't have to commit with Kanya and hope they path well around buildings).
With that said, it would be interesting to see how aenna/toma/mantlet semi works vs Japan.

[fei123456]

A fast FF, 800 resources into fortress shipments (skip 5v) may work.

[kaister]

best play is to go 5v-800 res ff, and then agro early three. Youre up before japan, and want to go FP-Kanya Early to hit japan right when they hit 3, or if japan is being agro you maybe mix some mr. the key is not to overmake the mr and lose to pure yumi and not to give japan enough time when they hit 3

[_NT_sven]

Thank you all. I've tried multiple times with this MU and found an optimal BO:

(applies to 100f and 100c start only; 100w is absolutely better but you might need to go 15v age up, and the subsequent bo would be different.)

14v age up with The Wise Woman. Chop 200(TP) + 100(Market) + 50(Hunting Dogs) + 75(Placer Mine) + 125(Long House) - 100(Wise Woman Crate) = 450 wood in transition.
Note 1: This very greedy build is only against the equally greedy Japanese fortress build, kami-600w-600c. (adding 4v to this BO would slow down its aging up time even more, so not a good choice there.)

Make Tp first and then a market. Most vill continue to chop and wait for the market tech to finish. Then switch to food and coin.
Note 2: You chop 125w for a longhouse because it does not delay your aging up, and you get extra XP earlier.

Send 5v and then 800res. With modest treasure findings you would be able to start aging up at around 6:30 and hit age 3 at 7:10. Chop 25w with 1 v and make a longhouse when you have enough wood. Build a corral with the sleigh next to the forward WH. Make 10 fp and send in 6 kanya, and meanwhile upgrade it.
Note 3: 200w used to upgrade the unit and 100w for the house as mentioned.

Your elite kanya horsemen arrive at 7:50 and you should have made 5 fp by then, with 5 in queue. The Japanese player is just halfway aging up now. You can always walk into his base before he reaches Age3 and pick up his age 2 units and the yumiarchers popped up from the TC. Withdraw after this destruction and send in 1200 res to remass.
Note 4: 1200res is usually good to send as the first shipment, but if Japan goes greedy without making many colonial units, this current build just ends them. If they make more units before aging up, however, it is better to send 1200res and you can still catch up with them. It all depends on the Japanese aging up timing.

The issue here is that if you send in 1200res first, the next shipment won't arrive right after this and you have to wait for 10-20 sec before that, which gives the Japanese more time to prepare for the attack. Also you cannot spend all that res for the timing attack unless (1) you make MR which is not good; (2) You make Kanya and chop wood for yourself, which is not economically efficient either. This BO allows you to use all the resources at the right timing and still storm in before Jap ages up. And you do have enough time to siege the wall down if he makes it.

[kaister]

ego recs, Dont push until ay too late vs FJ, hit the timing well against nightingstar