russia is so one dimensional is it not

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United States of America Squamiger
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russia is so one dimensional is it not

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Post by Squamiger »

I've been thinking about this for a bit now. It sort of strikes me as odd that it was never something EP sought to address. I might be wrong and a noob though so just tell me.

Russia basically has one build, or maybe it's one and a half, that is actually optimal. Sure you can water boom, or FF with opris and run around Aiz style, or do some kind of weird Spice Trade colonial boom. But 90% of the time, the most optimal thing to do seems to be 14 vill age up, 5 cossacks, 700w, and then adapt and try to mass and hold till you get Boyars, and then push in mid-late colonial and try to win. The other 10% of the time, you can do an all-in rush with less vills in discovery and 5 cossack 13 strelet, but I feel like this loses a lot.

Sure, other things might work with Russia if you outplay, but really is the Boyars timing the only optimal build, for every single matchup (?? am I wrong? am i noob 1st lieut)? Most civs at least have variability where different strats are more viable for some matchups vs. others, but when I was playing Russia more it just felt like I did the same thing every game no matter what.

Russia feels balanced, but this kinda seems "broken" in a way unrelated to balance. Shouldn't there be some more diversity of tactics available? With every other civ, even "botto", there are multiple build orders that a player has to decide between. I wonder if DE will address this.

What are ppl's thoughts
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I've been thinking about this for a bit now. It sort of strikes me as odd that it was never something EP sought to address.
That's something EP tried to adress, but we couldn't find a good solution. We did try though.
Sure, other things might work with Russia if you outplay, but really is the Boyars timing the only optimal build, for every single matchup (?? am I wrong? am i noob 1st lieut)?
Not in every single match up, no. Against agressive civ (Aztec, Iro aging with the fast age up, 400w Otto, Sioux), you want to play defensively and try to win in late colonil. In most match-ups, the 5/700w/700 rush is the best build though.
Shouldn't there be some more diversity of tactics available?
Should yes, but as I said, we couldn't find a solution.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Astaroth »

Completely agreed. Russia is really the most one-dimensional civ. Everyone complains about botto or china, but Russia is really the ultimate bot civ which literally only requires you to know one build order (max two), the only difference being if the BH is forward or not.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by voigt1240 »

They just feel so awkward transitioning to age 3
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Squamiger »

[Armag] diarouga wrote: Should yes, but as I said, we couldn't find a solution.

was a Revolt ever considered a possibility? I can see that you wouldn't want to buff Russia's fortress / industrial too much to make an FF or FI viable since that might just make the civ super OP. but I wonder if just adding a good revolt option for Russia would have made the civ a little more complex to play
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by gibson »

I dont think russias that one dimensional. They struggle at doing any sort of decent ff build but outside of that they have a decent repertoire of strats and builds.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Astaroth »

gibson wrote:I dont think russias that one dimensional. They struggle at doing any sort of decent ff build but outside of that they have a decent repertoire of strats and builds.
You can theoretically do other stuff, but I feel most of their builds, while unique and fun (such as your BH spam and/or water play) are just strictly inferior to some sort of map control/5 coss/crates/boyars/pressure and contain build.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by richard »

Squamiger wrote: Russia basically has one build, or maybe it's one and a half, that is actually optimal.
What do you mean with a build being optimal?
Squamiger wrote: Russia feels balanced, but this kinda seems "broken" in a way unrelated to balance. Shouldn't there be some more diversity of tactics available? With every other civ, even "botto", there are multiple build orders that a player has to decide between. I wonder if DE will address this.

What are ppl's thoughts
There are a lot of builds you can play with russia. Who decides what builds you play?
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by voigt1240 »

I saw a clip of aizamk Massing strelets and then sending The card that turns All your strelets into muskets for a big age3 timing. But I feel like that should not work most of the time.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by harcha »

voigt1240 wrote:I saw a clip of aizamk Massing strelets and then sending The card that turns All your strelets into muskets for a big age3 timing. But I feel like that should not work most of the time.
Yeah that is something that you lose to once and never again. It's just so easy to read and counter.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Squamiger »

richard wrote:
Squamiger wrote: Russia basically has one build, or maybe it's one and a half, that is actually optimal.
What do you mean with a build being optimal?
i mean that in a competitive game, playing against an opponent who is also playing to their full capacity, all other things being equal, the best strat is always just going to be 5 coss / 700w / ??? / boyars = win (or lose)
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Hazza54321 »

Eh theyre fine lol, its just how they work colonial into controlling the map. Very few civs do this and imo its a refreshing way to play.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

EP did try to address. The problem is that any possible buff to 17v is also a buff to 14v. Then some guy developed an obsession with decimal points and it all went downhill from there.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Garja »

Especially on EP you can go 17v age up and play a boomy game, or semi FF sort of game. Russia gets 400w and fast age up, steel traps and a decent age 1 card. This means it can be played close to other semi FF civs. You just have to play around the lack of 5v card and auto ups for your units, which I think you can in many cases.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Squamiger »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:EP did try to address. The problem is that any possible buff to 17v is also a buff to 14v. Then some guy developed an obsession with decimal points and it all went downhill from there.
like I asked rouga, what about just giving them a decent revolt politician. wouldn't change anything else about how they play, just would make a different strat viable
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by voigt1240 »

I think The problem is they have to upgrade all their units once in age 3. Not that they are bad at semi ff just that there are better civs.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Hazza54321 »

Russian re + age 3 unit shipment buffs is honestly just good
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by gibson »

Garja wrote:Especially on EP you can go 17v age up and play a boomy game, or semi FF sort of game. Russia gets 400w and fast age up, steel traps and a decent age 1 card. This means it can be played close to other semi FF civs. You just have to play around the lack of 5v card and auto ups for your units, which I think you can in many cases.
The problem is if you age up at a decent time you cant really afford unit ups and to make units
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by fedjahnson »

Have you ever ff'd and shipped the 9 higlanders and the 6 hackapells I find it somewhat effective. especially if you add cannons and a tp line.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by richard »

Squamiger wrote:
richard wrote:
Squamiger wrote: Russia basically has one build, or maybe it's one and a half, that is actually optimal.
What do you mean with a build being optimal?
i mean that in a competitive game, playing against an opponent who is also playing to their full capacity, all other things being equal, the best strat is always just going to be 5 coss / 700w / ??? / boyars = win (or lose)
So you say a russian build is being optimal, if in a competitive game, playing against an opponent who is also playing to their full capacity, all other things being equal, the best strat is 5 coss / 700w / ??? / boyars.

According to this definition there are several optimal builds. Each optimal build is of the form 5 coss / 700w / ??? / boyars.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by dansil92 »

I think a lot of builds are doable as russia, but most are just worse than 5 coss 700w contain builds. Ive had a moderate amount of success with 700f 700w 700c semi ff builds but it doesnt feel nearly as smooth or effective as other semi ff builds, nor does it feel like you have enough eco to push out batches of age 3 units and upgrade them and... Well at least you get 2 falcs, which is always nice
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by Garja »

gibson wrote:
Garja wrote:Especially on EP you can go 17v age up and play a boomy game, or semi FF sort of game. Russia gets 400w and fast age up, steel traps and a decent age 1 card. This means it can be played close to other semi FF civs. You just have to play around the lack of 5v card and auto ups for your units, which I think you can in many cases.
The problem is if you age up at a decent time you cant really afford unit ups and to make units
Depends, it's close. You have to play defensively in early age III vs the other semi FF civs but since Russia has 2 falcs there is that 1-2 minute window where things are just slow and you have time to catch up. With naked FF you shouldn't have too many problems about timings, it's more about not losing on your way to age3.
The good thing about Russia is that you have a blockhouse and strelets are incredibly cheap so (on EP atleast) you can trade decent vs cav too. This means you can pretty much strelet semi FF regardless of what semi the opponent is doing (might mix one batch of ruskets if you expect tons of cav). Then in age3 you just make anticav (even halbs are ok at the start) until trading falcs for other units. Once you free up a bit of pop space and get to the next cards your eco/units are about the same as most other civs. Still on the backfoot because strels have less range but slowly Russia outscales and you can move out on the map.
Ideally tho should find a specific build that makes some units in colo and then ages at a reasonable time so that you're not on the backfoot from the start.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Squamiger wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote: Should yes, but as I said, we couldn't find a solution.

was a Revolt ever considered a possibility? I can see that you wouldn't want to buff Russia's fortress / industrial too much to make an FF or FI viable since that might just make the civ super OP. but I wonder if just adding a good revolt option for Russia would have made the civ a little more complex to play
No, because the civ is too slow to FI and doesn't have enough villagers, the revolt would be awful.
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:EP did try to address. The problem is that any possible buff to 17v is also a buff to 14v. Then some guy developed an obsession with decimal points and it all went downhill from there.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: russia is so one dimensional is it not

Post by richard »

Garja wrote:
gibson wrote:The problem is if you age up at a decent time you cant really afford unit ups and to make units
Depends, it's close. You have to play defensively in early age III vs the other semi FF civs but since Russia has 2 falcs there is that 1-2 minute window where things are just slow and you have time to catch up. With naked FF you shouldn't have too many problems about timings, it's more about not losing on your way to age3.
The good thing about Russia is that you have a blockhouse and strelets are incredibly cheap so (on EP atleast) you can trade decent vs cav too. This means you can pretty much strelet semi FF regardless of what semi the opponent is doing (might mix one batch of ruskets if you expect tons of cav).
What semi-ff build do you recommend for this? 17 Vill to age II and 23 Vill age up to age III? Card order? How many strelets do you build in age II or in transition to age III? Thanks for any advices.

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