a question about semi-FF

Peru VictorXV
Crossbow
Posts: 35
Joined: Jul 6, 2020

a question about semi-FF

  • Quote

Post by VictorXV »

ok this is a simple question that I am sure I am missing something.
I am trying to improve with several civs, in order to better understand my match-ups and to actually get the best of the game. I am reading guides and stuff. The strategy I will like to succed at is semi-FF. Why? bc I like a game in which I can get see all types of units (mine or from the oppnent) and take advantage of what the game offers in gameplay, it makes the game fun.

However, I cant seem to understand how does this strategy work against rushes? Why am I suppossed to do against a rush with mixed unites(like Russia, Iro, Brits, Sioux, etc ...) if I chose musk-semi or huss-semi. I will only have 5 units of one type so they all get countered. In videos from youtube of EP tournaments no one rushes, I will love to have that level of defense ability to be able to discourage my opponent from rushing at all, so I do my huss-semi without problems. But .... what should I do against early aggression? age in the middle of the preassure?

currently this is how it goes:
my vills get iddle >> military buildings get destroyed >> gg

Currently I am playing Japan, Ports, Brits, India.

Thanks for your help :D
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: a question about semi-FF

  • Quote

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Well you're not really playing semi ff civs, that's the problem :)

As Japan you cannot semi ff against a rush. You need to hold it first (with yumi/wall for example) and only then age. As Port if you go for a semi ff build you need to hold the rush or send CM. As Brit don't semi ff in the lower levels, it's not going to work, and as India just play in colonial if your opponent is playing colonial too.

If you want to semi ff, then play civs like France, Iro, Germany or Dutch.
User avatar
United States of America Squamiger
Howdah
Posts: 1756
Joined: Dec 25, 2018
ESO: Squamiger

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by Squamiger »

everything rouga said + this: in theory, I think you can kinda make a strat triangle in AoE3. Fast Fortress beats a rush, rush beats a semi-FF, and semi-FF beats a fast fortress. Or at least I've heard it explained to me that way. This is obviously not true for everything, but I would say the rule generally holds that a rush will usually almost always beat a semi-FF. The 5-cav semi-FF is designed to slow down an opponent who is FF'ing, allowing you to arrive at Fortress yourself having already done some damage, with a better eco and better military. So if your opponent rushes or goes for an age 2 timing instead, you're just up to fortress slower than normal and you likely haven't done any damage because your 5 cav or 10 musk will not be able to touch a player making units in age 2.

There is something like a defensive semi-FF, where your goal is to hold a rush while you try to get to fortress, which I think can work situationally. It's something China likes to do vs. more aggro civs like Sioux, Aztec, or Russia, where your goal is to ship chu ko nus / pikes / steppes in order to survive till age 3. But I think it's a little more advanced and I'm pretty bad at it myself. It seems to work for players who are really good at base defense, which I am not, and which I bet you aren't either.

If you want semi-FF, play France for starters, I would say. Master the 5-cav semi-FF, which is quite flexible as you can always just ship 700w instead of 700c and drop a barracks for age 2 fighting if you need to.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: a question about semi-FF

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user »

just play germany and make mercs, units which bypass the entire counter system and require no micro or macro. then type "gg ez" after you win every game, and apologize for not having the decency to just moesbar your opponent instead
User avatar
China fei123456
Jaeger
Posts: 3283
Joined: Apr 23, 2015
ESO: fei123456
Location: Alderaan

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by fei123456 »

Rush/colonial timing counters semiFF.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

fei123456 wrote:Rush/colonial timing counters semiFF.
Not true, it depends on the MU.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by Mitoe »

You can delay your age up if you need to. Instead of following the generic semi-FF build order (vills > wood > coin and age), you can add in an extra crate shipment or unit shipment before your coin to defend a timing first, then age afterwards.
User avatar
Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1873
Joined: Apr 27, 2015
ESO: Forgrin

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by forgrin »

5 Cav semi-FFs (or 5-10 musk, pike etc) are basically anti-meta builds. They're not useful unless you understand their purpose.

The two "default" builds are colonial rush/timing or FF; the idea being that each civ powerspikes differently, and you want to get to your powerspikes ASAP. Ie. Brit is comparatively strong in a mid-colonial timing after they've manor boomed; in a vaccum that's probably their best build. Germany powerspikes in early/mid Fortress, so you want to FF to get to that point as soon as possible.

What a semi-FF does is highly MU-dependant, but it's usually a way to adapt your civ to match your powerspike to theirs in some way.

Example: France has good powerspikes in colonial and fortress. Vs Germany, though, they want to be in Fortress as well, because if France goes for a samwise-build esque timing and Germany FFs, Germany will likely win. Therefore, France might want to FF as well.

However, Germany can use the semi-FF strategy to raid France if they try to naked FF, causing an eco disparity and slowing down France's ageup time, giving Germany the advantage. France then uses a semi-FF itself, either trading some vill pressure for the TP (musk semi) or reserving huss to catch ulhan raids (5 Cav semi).

That's the basic idea; semi-FFs are typically to slow down your opponent's powerspike in relation to your own. If your powerspikes are too far mismatched (ie Spain vs Dutch) then a semi-FF might not help much, you got "counterpicked" and need to use another build for a different, suboptimal powerspike.
https://www.twitch.tv/forgin14

"WTF WHERE ARE MY 10 FALCS" - AraGun_OP
User avatar
France chronique
Advanced Player
Posts: 2060
Joined: Jul 4, 2015
ESO: poissondu44
Location: France

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by chronique »

Hmm semi seem pretty meta imo. The thing is, at some point the line between ff / sff / age 2 play is not that clear. Like mitoe said, you can semi, then train 1 mous / 1 cav, if your oppoenent push you can complete your batchs and your ff / sff become age 2 play.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ye, it's easy to open with a military building and finish a batch + send a unit shipment against a rush, and semi ff if he isn't aggressive.
It's about adaptation.

And eco ff (France, Germany) are simply not viable if your opponent trains units in age 2. Furthermore, you cannot adapt, that's why it s not very common.
Peru VictorXV
Crossbow
Posts: 35
Joined: Jul 6, 2020

Re: a question about semi-FF

Post by VictorXV »

Thanks everyone for your answers!! There's a lot of new information that makes a lot of sense that I didnt consider before.

As Ports I always try to send other cards and when I need CM is too late, and as Japan the majority of times I forget about the walls. But thats something I gotta practive myself. Anyway, what I take from this is:
-Japan: Yumi wall and then push/age
-Ports: CM, hold the rush and age
-Brits: seal the deal in Colo or age for Falcs
-India: aggresive in Colonial vs a rush. Will a deffensive Fort and then Urumis work?
is it ok?

More questions

1- in which situations is better to push out and in which situations is better to age?
2- If I get a 200w start as Ports and I wanna send ATP for TPs (or natives if I wanna YOLO), is it better to get a house and wait for ATP for my first TP; or should I go for the TP, gather for a house and then when ATP arrives I start with the other TPs?
3- When do you send CM as Ports? 2nd 3rd?
4- does a FF actually beats a rush thou? this is something I gotta try myself too, I've always been a coward to just go FF bc I dunno if I will be capable to hold the rush but Mamelukes could clean the rush if I get them in time :hmm:
5- what's the default card order for semi-FF and for FF?
6- what's an eco FF? :hmm:

I'm gonna start playing more Germany and France then :biggrin:

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV