The Humble Landsknecht (in German Mirror)

[Colonel0tto]

You can't really retreat from a fight in German mirror.

What I mean is you might choose not to engage if you see minutemen pop before the fight. Once the melee has started you're right that there's no retreating happening, which is why having an edge in the melee is so good.

I think if 6 Dopps (no uhlans) was available as a shipment for 400g it might be sent. That's basically what you get with 4 Landsknecht - as much effective melee hp as 8 Dopp, stacked in a way that makes them less vulnerable to splash damage, but with less splash attack of their own and more single target damage.

[Kaiserklein]

Landsknechts aren't really tankier at range than dops per cost. Also sending 8 bows is way cheaper than sending landsknechts. Anyway like we said you won't be able to force a fight with lands, you'll just get kited or tc fired.

Btw 6 dops 0 uhlan for 400g and a whole minute of shipment time would just be bad

[Colonel0tto]

Landsknechts aren't really tankier at range than dops per cost. Also sending 8 bows is way cheaper than sending landsknechts. Anyway like we said you won't be able to force a fight with lands, you'll just get kited or tc fired.

Btw 6 dops 0 uhlan for 400g and a whole minute of shipment time would just be bad

Please correct me if I'm wrong as I likely am.

In an age 2 fight where both sides are going back and forth with dopp/ Uhlan, both sides have around 8 Uhlan and 5 Dopp (for instance).

Player 1 ships 4 Landsknecht and trains a batch of 3 Dopp. They now have 8 Dopp and 4 Landsknecht with 8 Uhlans. They push towards Player 2's base.

Player 2 ships 700 coin to age. They now have 5 Dopp and 10 Uhlans. They've just clicked to age up when when Player 1 arrives. They can't engage with the melee troops so they wait to pop 8 xbow and minutemen.

Player 1 has enough seige to destroy German houses in 6 seconds, a market in 9 and a stable/barracks in 12. Let's say they destroy 2 houses before walking away to avoid the 8 bow timing. They've lost maybe 2 Dopps in the process.

Player 1's shipment is 3 Dopp along with a reinforcing batch of 5 Dopp. Player 1 now walks into Player 2's base with 4 Landsknecht, 14 Dopp and 10 Uhlan. Player 2 has aged up and may have access to a shipment, but how can they stop Player 1's force with just 5 Dopp, 10 Uhlan, 8 xbow and minutemen?

[Kaiserklein]

If you ship landsknechts while he ships 700g, he's already aging by when you reach his base. He won't ship 8 bows, just 3 WWs and kite forever. Besides there's tc fire and mm to snipe the lands, always the same story. 1 landsknecht is almost as expensive as 2 houses anyway.
So you're delaying your own fortress age by a lot without being able to deal a lot of damage / take good trades. That's just game losing. Not to mention you can't be sure they're aging, so there's always the 5 dops pop / bows / mm threat, preventing you from committing to anything really aggressive.

[Colonel0tto]

Landsknechts aren't really tankier at range than dops per cost

Since Lands tank around 80% more xbow shots (22) than Dopps (12), for Lands to be cost-ineffective for their tankiness would require them to be 80% more expensive than Dopps - this would make them 360 resources each.

I really don't think you can evaluate the 4 Land shipment as costing 1440 resources!

Again, your opponent really shouldn't be trying to snipe Lands since they don't have significantly more siege or damage than Dopps (75 siege compared to 60) compared to the number of shots needed to kill with the TC (5 compared to 3).

I think we're picturing the same starting scenario, but if he has no 8 bows you're just sitting under his TC. That's a bit of a nightmare scenario to be popping 3 war wagons into, especially with uhlans around to snare.

If your opponent is committing to age 2 then you still have the scarier army in melee, can take TP line, send 8 bows yourself or use your own 700c to advance in age faster than your opponent if they chose to use theirs to build units.

[Kaiserklein]

This is just absolutely unrealistic tbh.

Since Lands tank around 80% more xbow shots (22) than Dopps (12), for Lands to be cost-ineffective for their tankiness would require them to be 80% more expensive than Dopps - this would make them 360 resources each.

I really don't think you can evaluate the 4 Land shipment as costing 1440 resources!

Let's say the average colonial shipment is worth 650 resources. Add 2 uhlans to that, that's 950 resources for the average german colonial shipment. Add 400g for the cost of the shipment, that's 1350 resources. Is that really so far from 1440 resources..? Not to mention a lot of these resources is coin (400 and 200 for the uhlans), and the shipment takes 60 seconds instead of 40 to come on the field.

Anyway, you can't really maths like that, there's more factors. Lands won't get overkilled as much as dops by your ranged units, that's one reason why they don't tank that much at range already. Another reason is their slower speed meaning they'll get kited more.

Again, your opponent really shouldn't be trying to snipe Lands since they don't have significantly more siege or damage than Dopps (75 siege compared to 60) compared to the number of shots needed to kill with the TC (5 compared to 3).

Of course he should be sniping them. The small siege difference isn't really relevant here, what matters is that landsknechts will deal more damage in this small armies scenario than dops. Like I said there's very little overkill on them so focusing them is very efficient.

I think we're picturing the same starting scenario, but if he has no 8 bows you're just sitting under his TC. That's a bit of a nightmare scenario to be popping 3 war wagons into, especially with uhlans around to snare.

You're conveniently ommitting the fact that it takes forever to ship lands and then cross the map, and that mm will do great vs a pure melee composition. Also that the defending players has dops himself to buy time. I'm extremely confident there is no window to "sit under his TC", unless you want to overcommit and lose the game.

If your opponent is committing to age 2 then you still have the scarier army in melee, can take TP line, send 8 bows yourself or use your own 700c to advance in age faster than your opponent if they chose to use theirs to build units.

If they stay to age 2 and you push their base, you risk losing your whole army because of an 8 bows, mm, 5 dops powerspike. That's called overcommitting, it's very common, and happens a lot when you sit right where your opponent pops units, while your own reinforcements are crossing the map.