When to push or be greedy as Japan (Legacy)

[scarm]

So guys,

i am trying to learn japan on legacy, to improve my macro and decisionmaking as well as late-game, because i usually prefer aggressive all-in civs (been playing mostly spain and otto).

I have lost three games in a row now (one vs. China, one vs Otto and one vs Russia) because i anticipated early aggression/FF, but my opponent greeded out. Once i realized that at about the 8 minute mark when there was no sign for an FF push, i tried to mass and use my superior economy to push. I lost every single one of these games though, because my pushes were misstimed i think. I also did not go greedy enough to outscale them. And yes i know how ridiculous it is that i got outscaled by otto as japan LUL.

My question is how do you advise me to make my decision making as japan? When should you push, what are the signs for that, when should you be greedy etc. I find it incredibly hard to find the right balance between being cautios and defensive enough but then knowing when to be aggresive.

Thanks in advance for all tips and answers!

Maybe for some context for each game:

Vs Otto: Siberia, i played standard kami into yumi anticipating double jan. when i did not scout any rax and he took second TP i instead assumed FF. When that did not happen i pushed with about 30 yumi and 30 ashi around the 10 minute mark, and took 2 of this stagecoach tp. He during that time made it to Age 4. My push was halted by Falcs + Spahi, i lost quite a bit, but kind off did not trade too badly, but had to retreat. I decided to age, and mixed yabusame, he had time to setup factories in the time. My economy was superior the entire game but his age advantage and the bombards just fucked me every engagement.

Vs.China: kinda similar for the most part, except i focussed naginata + ashi, got fucked when he reached age 4 during my push and old han kicked in.

VS. Russia: i contained him quite well and did decent damage, but neglected my eco and in the end was fucked because he idled me a lot with opri raids i couldnt really stop.

[[Armag] diarouga]

So guys,

i am trying to learn japan on legacy, to improve my macro and decisionmaking as well as late-game, because i usually prefer aggressive all-in civs (been playing mostly spain and otto).

I have lost three games in a row now (one vs. China, one vs Otto and one vs Russia) because i anticipated early aggression/FF, but my opponent greeded out. Once i realized that at about the 8 minute mark when there was no sign for an FF push, i tried to mass and use my superior economy to push. I lost every single one of these games though, because my pushes were misstimed i think. I also did not go greedy enough to outscale them. And yes i know how ridiculous it is that i got outscaled by otto as japan LUL.

My question is how do you advise me to make my decision making as japan? When should you push, what are the signs for that, when should you be greedy etc. I find it incredibly hard to find the right balance between being cautios and defensive enough but then knowing when to be aggresive.

Thanks in advance for all tips and answers!

Maybe for some context for each game:

Vs Otto: Siberia, i played standard kami into yumi anticipating double jan. when i did not scout any rax and he took second TP i instead assumed FF. When that did not happen i pushed with about 30 yumi and 30 ashi around the 10 minute mark, and took 2 of this stagecoach tp. He during that time made it to Age 4. My push was halted by Falcs + Spahi, i lost quite a bit, but kind off did not trade too badly, but had to retreat. I decided to age, and mixed yabusame, he had time to setup factories in the time. My economy was superior the entire game but his age advantage and the bombards just fucked me every engagement.

Vs.China: kinda similar for the most part, except i focussed naginata + ashi, got fucked when he reached age 4 during my push and old han kicked in.

VS. Russia: i contained him quite well and did decent damage, but neglected my eco and in the end was fucked because he idled me a lot with opri raids i couldnt really stop.

Japan is very hard to play at a decent level, unlike what some people like to say because you have to scout and adapt, and if you miss something it's almost game over. So the answer is scout to know what your opponent is doing, and with time you'll learn how to counter it, but that's never easy.

Vs Otto: Siberia, i played standard kami into yumi anticipating double jan.

Why did you anticipate double jan ? Did you have experience in this MU against that player ? Else, there is no reason to assume he'll double jan.
Starting yumi when the guy is ffing is a game losing mistake, so that's not a decision I'd make based on just a feeling.

when i did not scout any rax and he took second TP i instead assumed FF.

Not scouting something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Did you scout his shipments ? His age up politician ?

When that did not happen i pushed with about 30 yumi and 30 ashi around the 10 minute mark

Wait, what ? So you had to wait 10 minutes to know he wasn't going for a ff ? Besides you're supposed to go age 3 against a ff on Siberia, not make 60 units.
You cannot play blindly for 10 minutes and expect to win a game as Japan.

Vs.China: kinda similar for the most part, except i focussed naginata + ashi, got fucked when he reached age 4 during my push and old han kicked in.

One thing you have to learn as Japan is that you should never make units if you don't use them. With the yumi/wall meme, people believe that you can just mass yumi behind a wall and win, but that's simply not true. You always have to wonder, why am I making units instead of building more shrines or aging ?
If it's just to sit in base, then it's a mistake. That's why the yumi style fell out of fassion, because if you overmake yumis you wasted resources, while ashi/nagi can always be active on the map to raid and scout.

VS. Russia: i contained him quite well and did decent damage

What ? You contained Russia as Japan ? Did you go Russian consulate to make a forward blockhouse or what haha ?

but neglected my eco and in the end was fucked because he idled me a lot with opri raids i couldnt really stop.

Next time don't neglect our eco I guess, and walling as Japan doesn't really hurt.

[scarm]

Why did you anticipate double jan ? Did you have experience in this MU against that player ? Else, there is no reason to assume he'll double jan.
Starting yumi when the guy is ffing is a game losing mistake, so that's not a decision I'd make based on just a feeling.

No, i did not. I personally just tower FF as otto in that MU, but i assumed he would rush me bc people love their jan rush in my tier. Good advice though, thanks. So the correct Play would have been to FF? (as jap i mean) What unit composition? Flaming Arrows and Ashi?

Not scouting something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Did you scout his shipments ? His age up politician ?

No i did not, probably could have won had i done that. I am having trouble between using my explorers to shrine and scout. He sent 3 huss which made me believe i was right about him going for some colonial stuff.

One thing you have to learn as Japan is that you should never make units if you don't use them. With the yumi/wall meme, people believe that you can just mass yumi behind a wall and win, but that's simply not true. You always have to wonder, why am I making units instead of building more shrines or aging ?
If it's just to sit in base, then it's a mistake. That's why the yumi style fell out of fassion, because if you overmake yumis you wasted resources, while ashi/nagi can always be active on the map to raid and scout.

Good advice, makes lots of sense, i will try to do that more thanks. The yumi-w meme really makes you think you can just sit in base as jap and win.

Wait, what ? So you had to wait 10 minutes to know he wasn't going for a ff ? Besides you're supposed to go age 3 against a ff on Siberia, not make 60 units.
You cannot play blindly for 10 minutes and expect to win a game as Japan.

I knew he was not being aggressive at 8 mins. But i was not confident i could win apush with my mass at that point, so i decided to wait a bit longer. Was stupid in hindsight since i should have known i could win, since he is most likely investing into tech or eco when hes not being aggressive.

What ? You contained Russia as Japan ? Did you go Russian consulate to make a forward blockhouse or what haha ?

He was passive as fuck so i used my ashi and nagis to raid and stand on his hunts while shrining everything. But i was afraid to push into blockhouses and strelets in his base because nagi would have had pathing trouble. He somehow managed to keep his mass up despite me blocking hunts and even threw up a mill or two x)

Thanks, @[Armag] diarouga !

[Astaroth]

Tbh I think without practice and at lower levels, Japan is actually quite difficult, at least to start out with. Among many other reasons, I believe basically 80 % of players on RE QS have a "counter Japan strat" (because so many people play Japan), and if you're not prepared for that and/or bad at defending, you will have a hard time.

[scarm]

I mean i am decent at defending, my problem in these three games was quite the opposite, their counter-strat was booming which i was not prepared for and i did not know when to push and was too cautious in the process.

[[Armag] diarouga]

No, i did not. I personally just tower FF as otto in that MU, but i assumed he would rush me bc people love their jan rush in my tier. Good advice though, thanks. So the correct Play would have been to FF? (as jap i mean) What unit composition? Flaming Arrows and Ashi?

Ye ashi/FA against an otto ff. But again, don't go blindly for a ff and then get fucked against a double jan. I'm just saying that on Siberia, Otto ff is the most likely strat.

No i did not, probably could have won had i done that. I am having trouble between using my explorers to shrine and scout. He sent 3 huss which made me believe i was right about him going for some colonial stuff.

You can shrine with vills (there are many hunts near your base on Siberia) and scout with 1 explorer. You'll lose less than 100 VS, and knowing what your opponent is going to do is much more important than 50w.

The yumi-w meme really makes you think you can just sit in base as jap and win.

I know, I know. I make that mistake too sometimes, but it's really not viable if you overmake units. Unless you're playing against super agressive players, I'd recommand going ashi/nagi because ashi can defend your shrines (while yumis die to cav) and they can harass as well.

He was passive as fuck so i used my ashi and nagis to raid and stand on his hunts while shrining everything. But i was afraid to push into blockhouses and strelets in his base because nagi would have had pathing trouble. He somehow managed to keep his mass up despite me blocking hunts and even threw up a mill or two x)

If he's passive as fuck, why don't you just build 20 shrines and go to industrial ? Japan fast industrial with age 4 flaming arrows and some ashi/nagi destroys the Russian turtle strats.

[scarm]

So bottomline is generally rather go ashi + nagi than yumi, and don't be afraid to use them to harass; be diligent about scouting and either push, be ready to defend or get tech/eco based on what you find out?

So in the otto scenario once i knew he was not going for an early fortress push i should have just pushed right away instead of waiting right? Was going for the tp line the right call or should i rather go for the base?

What would the buildorder in taht example vs russia be? Standard opening, kami --> 600w and then once it is clear he isn't doing 5413 or sth colonial 600c to age 3 and potentially 1000c to 4?

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you go for the TP line, then you have to save for fortress in the mean time. You can right click his base, though it's very risky.

Against Russia you can do kami/600w/CM against a rush, and ye just go for fortress if he's passive.

[scarm]

So just as a quick (albeit meaningless) update: I just played jap v. otto on ozarks. This time i scouted properly, saw 200c ageup and went for FF after him, started ashi, added nagi in transition, realised he was not going to push me and scouted a tc he threw up and spahi shipment, sent 2. FA and trained clubs from consuate and pushed with that + yumi from ageup and like 12 ashi. Did not win the fight convincingly because i let my units trickle in a bit, but i knew i'd probably be ok since i just have much more stuff than him, and from there on i killed his tc and crushed. Glad i was able to already translate some of the advice in that game. Now to solidify that lol.

It is so weird seeing people as otto go eco vs. jap, like the dude had a solid 6:45 age-time, a standard ff push would have been quite difficult to hold.

[deleted_user]

yeah, I love that aoe3 scaling balance is so poor that some civs force you to play the game like a complete BOB or else you just auto lose. Like, maybe I don't want to go for an 8 min timing or an 11 min timing every game. But I have to!

[Rohbrot]

Its a strategy game so u have to rely on timings , lol.

[deleted_user]

there can still be dynamic, inter-civ timings without mismatched scaling resulting in auto-losing if you let a civ alone for 10 mins (japan, port on water)

[Rohbrot]

Obviously u lose if u let any civ 10mins free sea or letting any civ going industrial without doing anything against

[deleted_user]

yeah that's dumb, and 10 mins is really only 5 mins of game play

and if you do wanna do something, you get 3 TC CM'd or 1 TC CM'd + yumi'd

I'm only griping with aoe3 scaling and how horribly balanced and unfun it is

[Rohbrot]

Need to work on something what does counter such strats but that does take time and practise.

[deleted_user]

there's a really simple solution to fix aoe3 -- delete japan AND delete rendering plant OR delete CM

[Rohbrot]

Japan isnt a problem in DE anymore with the small but hurting nerfs. (What was the case on ep also)