How to beat Japan as China?

[ShawnRay223]

Map: High Plains.
Level: 1st Lieutenal - Captain
Please help

[Garja]

FF

[Luciofrancosi]

FF, mass and z move.
I have only played one rated game with china on DE and it was against Japan.
My early game and my macro was awful as I have got a lot of idle time due to my innexperience with the civ yet I still had 2x his army when I attacked.

[ShawnRay223]

FF, mass and z move.
I have only played one rated game with china on DE and it was against Japan.
My early game and my macro was awful as I have got a lot of idle time due to my innexperience with the civ yet I still had 2x his army when I attacked.

when should i started pushing? if i mass then he can mass as well

[harcha]

Depends on what he does. If he decides to follow up, you should push ASAP. If he doesn't, check what army he is making. If he goes ashi nagi, you want to have plenty of anticav before pushing out, and keep using your arques actively with constant kiting.

[helln00]

agree with watch out for age ups. the longer they are in age 3 the smaller the mass advantage gets.

don't focus on the shrines too much, send some free pikes to chase them down.

also I have been caught out by some cheese torri gate timing so definitely scout their wonder.

[Kawapasaka]

I'm convinced the best way to win against a good Japan player is a forward village 7 steppe or 8 ckn opening. Everyone else will generally die to the FF though. Try to forward village from 700w (if they don't have units to deny it) and right click their base ASAP. Age with Confucian - if you can't forward village then they'll be going fairly agro so the 8 skirms are useful either way.
I'm pretty sure a Porcelain FF into shrine sieging is terrible.

[helln00]

I'm convinced the best way to win against a good Japan player is a forward village 7 steppe or 8 ckn opening. Everyone else will generally die to the FF though. Try to forward village from 700w (if they don't have units to deny it) and right click their base ASAP. Age with Confucian - if you can't forward village then they'll be going fairly agro so the 8 skirms are useful either way.
I'm pretty sure a Porcelain FF into shrine sieging is terrible.

idk what does an age 2 opening do to japan? they can just sit in base since their eco would be spread out and the monks can continue to build shrines to get wood to make more shrines.

Atleast torps can't really result in more torps and require sending out vils which are vulnerable. Same with incas their houses they are in one place and require vils and built houses don't generate more houses.

[Kawapasaka]

Well, what does any civ doing an age 2 opening against Japan accomplish? Take map, deny shrining, force a reaction, control the pace of the game. Go for a naked FF and a forward base isn't even guaranteed and you don't kill a single shrine until like 8-9 minutes. In my experience, it's very easy for Japan to have ran away with the game by then. Not that the FF is bad, it's never bad, but I think a more aggressive and adaptive approach works better here.

[jesus3]

Well, what does any civ doing an age 2 opening against Japan accomplish? Take map, deny shrining, force a reaction, control the pace of the game. Go for a naked FF and a forward base isn't even guaranteed and you don't kill a single shrine until like 8-9 minutes. In my experience, it's very easy for Japan to have ran away with the game by then. Not that the FF is bad, it's never bad, but I think a more aggressive and adaptive approach works better here.

Yes, fully agree on that. FF always feels like a horribly small window to beat Japan where everything needs to go right for you to win. If anyhow, it was with a forward village and Academy age-up. The lack of control of the pace makes it awkward to say the least, so some early pressure probably not only feels better, but most likely is better (it's just less of a black box than FF, where you sometimes just don't know if the Japan player is too far ahead already)

[helln00]

Well, what does any civ doing an age 2 opening against Japan accomplish? Take map, deny shrining, force a reaction, control the pace of the game. Go for a naked FF and a forward base isn't even guaranteed and you don't kill a single shrine until like 8-9 minutes. In my experience, it's very easy for Japan to have ran away with the game by then. Not that the FF is bad, it's never bad, but I think a more aggressive and adaptive approach works better here.

right but like thats why I compared it to swedes and incas. it is much harder to control the pace of the game against japan then for them, especially as china. the monks can just wonder the map and make shrines while you try to pressure or if you chase them down then they either a) just poof back or b) make units while the pressure is down and push your forward.

I can see euro civs doing this with spies since they can off the monk so easily but age 2 china feels really hard.

[Astaroth]

I'm convinced the best way to win against a good Japan player is a forward village 7 steppe or 8 ckn opening. Everyone else will generally die to the FF though. Try to forward village from 700w (if they don't have units to deny it) and right click their base ASAP. Age with Confucian - if you can't forward village then they'll be going fairly agro so the 8 skirms are useful either way.
I'm pretty sure a Porcelain FF into shrine sieging is terrible.

This feels very right.

It might be different at the top level, but I feel this is a mistake many people do vs. Japan: they dislike a full aggro playstyle or want to avoid the risk, so they go full greed, massing and denying shrines. Actually, this is just what Japan wants.

As a Japan player, you're not afraid of a min. 12+ China deathball and losing a few shrines. What you are really afraid of (at least if you want to follow up to age3) is a massive early aggro/timing push with the skirm wonder etc.

Even with walls, Japan is quite vulnurable to that IMO.