Ottoman treaty advice? Viable?

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Post by nickiru »

So I was playing around with ottomans, they got a peculiar unit mix:

abus guns rape everything except hand calv if microed to not waste SO MANY SHOTS!!! So covore them with some Janissarys acting as halberds and some horse archers and wow pretty impressive force.

Issues: they have a poop eco (having 2 less coin production cards.) They also have a slow startup. Best I have gotten was 2200k score compared to my 3000+ german/ports score' which makes otto significantly weaker (that was using a 700 coin catalyst card AND cows but no sheep with both cards to upgrade cow fattening and cow production, and food to wood conversion card.)

Benefits: Jans can make all 3 troop foundries on the field so in a way you don't have to sacrifice villagers (economy) to set up forward bases so in a sense this saves money compared to otehr civs who have to sacrifice labor to set up bases. They have the food to wood conversion card which is great in combo with the jans forward base spam all over the map. Strong cannon. Abus gunz!! Free villagers so if you do lose any or use them to spam walls after forward basing, instantly replaced without needing any attention or money, only the money lost in labor. Ridiculous defense' even if I lose the map, it's HARD for someone to take down the base due to beast skirms (abus guns) that can mass behind my buildings/walls.

______________________________________________________________________________________

I see very few ottoman treaty players (meaning 0). What's the trick with them? do any of you use them competitively? Any way to get better score? any great recordings or best otto booms and combat techniques (THAT BE GREAT)? etcetera? miscellaneous? crap? opinions? Am I annoying yet?
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Post by Papist »

The best advice? Don't play Otto in treaty.
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Post by nickiru »

that's like saying don't play aztec either. common they gotta be worth something? I was theorizing that the otto are at least a strong counter to germany.
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Post by anonymous123 »

Unless you are playing with natives, Usually all european civilizations has considerable advantage vs ottoman. Even Aztecs win that MU as far as they can get wood.
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Post by KINGofOsmane »

3 vill 700w 700c for jan abus can work i think
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Post by dicktator »

Ottos are kind of weak in treaty, in nats they might have a chance vs ports/German but get smashed by Brits/Spain, out of nats they don't have a prayer vs any tier two civ. For the boom you have to cow and wood trade to get a decent score. For the fight there are pretty much two strats. You can run with jans, build quickly on flanks, and play super aggressive, or you can make 13 towers and camp with abus.
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Post by nickiru »

Interesting.

how come they get smashed? I know they have a low score but, why utter weakness? Is it there military? I was amazed by the power of the abus gun. using combos like abus + horse archer, or cannon + horse archer with some abus would be devistating. I was comparing them to germany: german y has a very limited army (I main germany so I understand their army quite well). Insane melee (dops) that counters all calv, with tough skirms, speedy and high attack calv with almost literal tank war wagons.

Ottomans: have the most insane skirm in the game (abus gun). Seriously, they do 200+ dmg against heavy inf. their attack is also a "siege' attack which means they slaughter other skirms as well. They also can cannon snipe so you don't really need culverins. They have fair hussars, and basic horse archers. Their artillary are the best. Also their grenediers are nice if microd properly to absorb a lot of ranged dmg like calv.

like germany, otto has an insane unit with fair or specialized other units to covore them. Because abus is ranged which is more efficient than melee, I understand why the otto have -2 plantation eco cards. The abus make up for it in slaughtering enemy units.

That's my position. You guys say they suck, but why? I'm curious. don't for get their tactical advantages of taking over the map without the need for villagers which also saves money, all done with wood from the food conversion card.

I definitly aint saying they are the best but they gotta be worth something.

Back to my comparisons: germans have beast melee inf, french have beast melee calv, otto has beast skirms.
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Post by anonymous123 »

kingofosmane wrote:3 vill 700w 700c for jan abus can work i think
It''s Treaty thread :D
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Post by anonymous123 »

nickiru wrote:Interesting.

how come they get smashed? I know they have a low score but, why utter weakness? Is it there military? I was amazed by the power of the abus gun. using combos like abus + horse archer, or cannon + horse archer with some abus would be devistating. I was comparing them to germany: german y has a very limited army (I main germany so I understand their army quite well). Insane melee (dops) that counters all calv, with tough skirms, speedy and high attack calv with almost literal tank war wagons.

Ottomans: have the most insane skirm in the game (abus gun). Seriously, they do 200+ dmg against heavy inf. their attack is also a "siege'' attack which means they slaughter other skirms as well. They also can cannon snipe so you don''t really need culverins. They have fair hussars, and basic horse archers. Their artillary are the best. Also their grenediers are nice if microd properly to absorb a lot of ranged dmg like calv.

like germany, otto has an insane unit with fair or specialized other units to covore them. Because abus is ranged which is more efficient than melee, I understand why the otto have -2 plantation eco cards. The abus make up for it in slaughtering enemy units.

That''s my position. You guys say they suck, but why? I''m curious. don''t for get their tactical advantages of taking over the map without the need for villagers which also saves money, all done with wood from the food conversion card.

I definitly aint saying they are the best but they gotta be worth something.

Back to my comparisons: germans have beast melee inf, french have beast melee calv, otto has beast skirms.

Otto lack a decent anti-cavalry. Janissaries train way slow to be used as an proper anti-cavalry. Cavalry archers are not that good. Their economy is not that weak food to wood trade makes up at least for the first 10-15 min. You can cow with them and have more villagers on coin + infinite 300 coin shipment. Abus guns costing 2 Pop is also one of the major issue.


Back to your comparison: If you are considering every possible unit of every civ to it''s max potential then Best melee infantry = japan, best melee cavalry = ottoman and best skirmisher unit = sioux
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Post by mongobillione »

dude shut up i wanna see u reach 3k with ports what a fag
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Post by mongobillione »

and just to say im okey in nr 40 and got smashed by lukasl99s otto while using port in 8 mins so dont underestimate otto and lukas :/
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Post by purplesquid »

Pop efficiency wise abus are not actually that great. As Germany I can almost win by making nothing but WWs (seige damage does not matter because they don't have a ranged resist). . .
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Post by dicktator »

nickiru wrote:Interesting.

how come they get smashed? I know they have a low score but, why utter weakness? Is it there military? I was amazed by the power of the abus gun. using combos like abus + horse archer, or cannon + horse archer with some abus would be devistating. I was comparing them to germany: german y has a very limited army (I main germany so I understand their army quite well). Insane melee (dops) that counters all calv, with tough skirms, speedy and high attack calv with almost literal tank war wagons.


Yeah it''s their military. Abus guns do good damage but they have negative multipliers vs goons, which sucks. Their hussars are good, but they lack decent anticav (both their anticav units don''t do enough damage). A straight up art war doesn''t really work either because they only have two cav cards. Abus guns have slightly less range than other skirms, which in nats doesn''t matter as much because huamincas force the fight to be melee but out of nats can be devastating.

Ottomans: have the most insane skirm in the game (abus gun). Seriously, they do 200+ dmg against heavy inf. their attack is also a "siege'' attack which means they slaughter other skirms as well. They also can cannon snipe so you don''t really need culverins. They have fair hussars, and basic horse archers. Their artillary are the best. Also their grenediers are nice if microd properly to absorb a lot of ranged dmg like calv.

Their artillery is only slightly stronger than other civs because of the damage cards, the hp card does not make culvs 3 shot unless when teamed with ports or india, so it doesn''t matter much for art. Their damage against heavy inf is insane, yes, which is why ottos are so much stronger in nats, because abus/huaminca/hussar is stronger than almost any heavy inf/cav/skirm combo, and is hindered only by the fact that huamincas train slowly. Grens aren''t good, if you want a unit to tank just use jans. Abus guns don''t have a bonus against skirms, it''s also worth mentioning abus have slightly less range than other skirms.

like germany, otto has an insane unit with fair or specialized other units to covore them. Because abus is ranged which is more efficient than melee, I understand why the otto have -2 plantation eco cards. The abus make up for it in slaughtering enemy units.

This is only true in nats, huamincas synergize with their only good units (abus/hussar) really well. Out of nats they don''t have a decent anticav and they also don''t kill goons fast enough.

That''s my position. You guys say they suck, but why? I''m curious. don''t for get their tactical advantages of taking over the map without the need for villagers which also saves money, all done with wood from the food conversion card.

I definitly aint saying they are the best but they gotta be worth something.

In nats they are definitely worth something, it''s completely possible to beat germany or ports with otto in nats without a huge skill difference. Out of nats they get slaughtered by any tier two civ using a skirm/goon/hussar combo.

Back to my comparisons: germans have beast melee inf, french have beast melee calv, otto has beast skirms.

As I said before, Abus guns do really good damage but they are not without shortcomings.
Answers in bold.
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Post by nickiru »

true they have sucky anti calv.

I was experimenting with a friend (otto vs otto) and whenever either of us set out a hussar mass the other person struggled against it.

so... I found this card called dance halls that allows you to make ronin in the saloon, which ronin are like dopp/sams. I havn't tested it yet fully but the only draw back I see so far is that ronin cost 4 pop. but perhaps in small teams they can wipe out hand calv.... ey?

Perhaps ronin can take the place of the incan melee units to make the strong inf/calv/skirm combo. has anyone tried this? curious.
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Post by nickiru »

true they have sucky anti calv.... really sucky

I was experimenting with a friend (otto vs otto) and whenever either of us set out a hussar mass the other person struggled against it.

so... I found this card called dance halls that allows you to make ronin in the saloon, which ronin are like dopp/sams. I havn't tested it yet fully but the only draw back I see so far is that ronin cost 4 pop. but perhaps in small teams they can wipe out hand calv.... ey?

Perhaps ronin can take the place of the incan melee units to make the strong inf/calv/skirm combo. has anyone tried this? curious.
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Ottoman treaty advice? Viable?

Post by nickiru »

glitch double post
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Ottoman treaty advice? Viable?

Post by adderbrain5 »

I actually think that Ottomans are incredibly strong in treaty if someone knows how to play them well. Their unit composition is actually quite insane and even if you can't train janissaries fast enough if you are very skilled you can just keep on queued at all times. A lot of people try to out mass Avis guns with things like Imperio long Bowman but that just gets wrecked by Imperial bombards and Imperial Gardener spam real quick. Basically what Ottoman played well and treaty really does is force the opponent to go heavy on their hussars and this really hurts their economy after a while. Because huss vs even a few melee jan is a bad trade. There is no reason to ever make cavalry archer. The only thing you need as Ottomans that a lot of ppl miss is great bombards( and you actualy need them so badly if you lose ur factories you might as well resign.) janissaries and Avis guns. Sometimes you might want some Hussar. i play Ottoman in treaty by fast industrial using 700/1000 gold crates as soon as you get to industrial with the 1000 gold get the mercantilism and ship your factories and 2TC wagons. It seems really odd to do this but is actually the fastest way for Ottomans to Max villagers in treaty and I don't think many people know about it. You may still be the last civ o max, but Your score will be ahead of them due to facts techs and you will probably be in Imperial age 1st. Also do the wood trade with like at least 10 minutes left and of course livestock. Like I said just keep your FPM good and micro well and try to force him to go cav heavy eventually this will drain him there on a lot of cities that have a composition that can really be superior to Ottomans when played well.
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Post by princeofcarthage »

mnogobillione wrote:dude shut up i wanna see u reach 3k with ports what a fag
How do you reach 3k with ports?
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Post by charlemagen »

adderbrain5 wrote: I actually think that Ottomans are incredibly strong in treaty if someone knows how to play them well. Their unit composition is actually quite insane and even if you can''t train janissaries fast enough if you are very skilled you can just keep on queued at all times. A lot of people try to out mass Avis guns with things like Imperio long Bowman but that just gets wrecked by Imperial bombards and Imperial Gardener spam real quick. Basically what Ottoman played well and treaty really does is force the opponent to go heavy on their hussars and this really hurts their economy after a while. Because huss vs even a few melee jan is a bad trade. There is no reason to ever make cavalry archer. The only thing you need as Ottomans that a lot of ppl miss is great bombards( and you actualy need them so badly if you lose ur factories you might as well resign.) janissaries and Avis guns. Sometimes you might want some Hussar. i play Ottoman in treaty by fast industrial using 700/1000 gold crates as soon as you get to industrial with the 1000 gold get the mercantilism and ship your factories and 2TC wagons. It seems really odd to do this but is actually the fastest way for Ottomans to Max villagers in treaty and I don''t think many people know about it. You may still be the last civ o max, but Your score will be ahead of them due to facts techs and you will probably be in Imperial age 1st. Also do the wood trade with like at least 10 minutes left and of course livestock. Like I said just keep your FPM good and micro well and try to force him to go cav heavy eventually this will drain him there on a lot of cities that have a composition that can really be superior to Ottomans when played well.

I''m really glad your experimenting, but no. You should remove this post in case a wandering new player sees this and decided to learn your strAt.
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Post by dicktator »

princeofcarthage wrote:
mnogobillione wrote:dude shut up i wanna see u reach 3k with ports what a fag
How do you reach 3k with ports?
Offline with an OP computer and bb. Otherwise its impossible. Unless of course hes talking about nr55.
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Post by KINGofOsmane »

anonymous123 wrote:
kingofosmane wrote:3 vill 700w 700c for jan abus can work i think
Its Treaty thread :D
it works for tready even better
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Post by mongobillione »

princeofcarthage wrote:
mnogobillione wrote:dude shut up i wanna see u reach 3k with ports what a fag
How do you reach 3k with ports?
he said he did.. ofc its impossible
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Post by mongobillione »

princeofcarthage wrote:
mnogobillione wrote:dude shut up i wanna see u reach 3k with ports what a fag
How do you reach 3k with ports?
he said he can
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Post by mongobillione »

whats with that glitch??
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Post by nickiru »

[quote source="/post/58179/thread" author="@adderbrain5" timestamp="1443244855"] I actually think that Ottomans are incredibly strong in treaty if someone knows how to play them well. Their unit composition is actually quite insane and even if you can't train janissaries fast enough if you are very skilled you can just keep on queued at all times. A lot of people try to out mass Avis guns with things like Imperio long Bowman but that just gets wrecked by Imperial bombards and Imperial Gardener spam real quick. Basically what Ottoman played well and treaty really does is force the opponent to go heavy on their hussars and this really hurts their economy after a while. Because huss vs even a few melee jan is a bad trade. There is no reason to ever make cavalry archer. The only thing you need as Ottomans that a lot of ppl miss is great bombards( and you actualy need them so badly if you lose ur factories you might as well resign.) janissaries and Avis guns. Sometimes you might want some Hussar. i play Ottoman in treaty by fast industrial using 700/1000 gold crates as soon as you get to industrial with the 1000 gold get the mercantilism and ship your factories and 2TC wagons. It seems really odd to do this but is actually the fastest way for Ottomans to Max villagers in treaty and I don't think many people know about it. You may still be the last civ o max, but Your score will be ahead of them due to facts techs and you will probably be in Imperial age 1st. Also do the wood trade with like at least 10 minutes left and of course livestock. Like I said just keep your FPM good and micro well and try to force him to go cav heavy eventually this will drain him there on a lot of cities that have a composition that can really be superior to Ottomans when played well. [/quote]That's very interesting all you said:

I'll try the boom tactic you said about 700/1000 gold and the 2 tc wagons and I'll compare scores with my originals. My original scores used no accelerants, and then I tried a 700 gold in age 2 which helped a lot. All my tests use cows :D. I tend to range in scores of 1900 to 2100. The upper end is acheived with accerants. I am trying to reach 2500 so I can at least not be dwarfed by 3000 like ports and gemrany. That's a significant diff.

well said: I was testing against my friend who was also otto and yes he did go mass heavy calv' which, although he started to make ground, he was annihilating his economy. That's a strong benifit how the only way the enemy can really destroy ottoman armies is going heavy which shreds their money stash. Therefore: the tactic, like you said, outlast them and micro well. Wait them out and then attack to kill once they weaken. (end result I won that game against my friend BECAUSE he ran out of money. I had still 20000f and 20000g where he was like... 0. lols he was streaming and started panicking. while I was sitting fat and sassy.)

That's good that you mention when I should send the food to wood trade card: at 10min. That's when I did it too actually, just wasn't sure what everyone else did and when would be most efficient. Thnx!

This really may seem taboo but what about ronin'using the 'dance halls' card? Has anyone ever tried that? Or is that kinda out of the question (lols) they take 4 pop. but it's like having dopps as ottoman to beat calv. Though I was experimenting and found jans to win simply because you get 4 times the units. ronin and jans maxed out have almost the same health. lets round down to 500: ronin cost 4 pop which means I get 500 health per 4 pop' where jans I get 2000hp per 4 pop since it's 500 times 4. both have good melee resistance but jans have 4 times the flesh. Honestly the jans hardly get ahead of the ronin in my tests, but they do win. The advantage I see with ronin is that they 'kill' faster. Jns take freakin forever. 5 Ronin slaughter a team of 50 hussars in about 10-15 second (ronin lose with about 8 hussars left). where jans took almost 40 seconds (and wons with about 8 or so jans left). huh interesting, 8 hussars left, 8 jans left... coincidence.

further experimentation needed for ronin :D, still curious what you guys think. I think they might have tactical value because of killing speed.

and yes, jans train slow but exactly like you said, just pay some attension to your barracks and keep a bunch of them on 1 unit training. Which then I was considering doing that technique as german or ports and then replacing the inf train card with something else tactically useful. Just a thought, maybe not worth it for those civs.

ok, obviously peple will read ahead, but the rest is targeted at charlamegan's comment that absolutly ruffled my feathers.

____________________________________

What the hell charlamegan?

"I'm really glad your experimenting, but no. You should remove this post in case a wandering new player sees this and decided to learn your strAt."

wow. I mean really? that is the number one way to offend me. way to shut down scientific development. It's people like you who wreck improvement, research, and strategic development. It's people like you who make everyone play what is socially acceptable and it's poeple ike you who make 'what' is socially acceptable. If you don't play what's acceptable, you are shunned and attacked!! CRAP. I hate you now. I hate your kind' therefore, I hate you.

No one will ever get better at this game unless they experiment. If a new player comes here and plays ottoman because of that: I would have thought GREAT!! If ottoman truly suck, he will figure that out on his own and then adjust himself and more fully understand why ottomans are weak and the other civs are better. Mindless drones such as yourself don't understand why certain civs are weaker or stronger: and of course you'll give me some basic proofs to prove me wrong like the types of units they have and card availability. You are to near sighted and only look at appearances!

you know why people haven't invented new batteries to revolutionize electric vehicles? you know why people haven't gone nuclear? you know why there seems to be this general technological stagnetism?

Its people like you.

Until there is someone who says: fuck the status quo, like scientists persecuted in the middle ages for going against the Catholics, and Nikola Tesla, people who made all these impressive leaps and bounds in theory and tech because they ignored the accepted things that shouldn't work. That's what I am trying to do and Get out of My Way! If I fail, let me fail. Don't hinder some noob either from playing what they want. I surely hope you get destroyed by an ottoman in treaty. I hope it's me.

I see people like you both real world an in games (it's really the same people. people are people). I am a renewable energy engineer and I see this crap ALL the time. Pisses me off.
____

rant.... that's only targeted at charlamegan, no one else lest they say something like that.

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