India vs Germ Treaty

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Post by evilcheadar »

I have extreme trouble in this MU. Some guy told me to use urumi shipment but I think that's crap since it cant be spammed. I cant take out massed skirm either as my mahouts just die to war wagon. How do I win it.
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Post by Cometk »

1v1 or team games? don't use urumi lol
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Post by evilcheadar »

cometk wrote:1v1 or team games? don''t use urumi lol
Both pretty much, I''ve lost both ways very hard.
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Hi, I was in that team game and Really I think india does counter germs nicely though its not easy for their great economy. Germs only chance is to delete villies, which he did. He played with 70 villie pop which is really pushing it, I think he did that because he knows germs really do suck vs india. If you see then outnumbering you then you need to delete down to about 80 s well. since u have most of ur coin from trade stockpiled and get wood easily through shipments. you dont need 100 on food. Id advise making some deck changes that give the extra 10 tigers and 8 war eles too to help counter mass skirms. as for urumi, I tend not to have them in my decks anymore but for some civ matchups i will use them. I find them really helpful vs dopple spam or any civ that uses a strong heavy inf hand attack like aztec, dutch, or vs port to get into the ranks of dragoons. Always quing them at 199 pop. they are sitational but very useful in those situations, but not nessesary i guess. but if you can trade 9 dopples for 9 urumi, thats over 2k resources for my 750 food which food is always prefered to use than coin or wood for sepoys and gurka that can take heavy losses to dopples. If you play that way remember india attacks in waves and its ok to take a retreat break to mass up again before you attack for your next objective. you should watch thecometk boom video its pretty good too.
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Post by evilcheadar »

Yes, I will have to figure out how to kill the skirms.
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

massing gurka and howas is pretty effective too essentially mirroring the skirm and WW. But gurkas and howdas are better at killing WW and gurkas are better than skrims because of higher attack and out ranging them. Its not an ideal way to fight but it buys some time to restrategize and train the tiger that kill them all. be aggressive with barrracks building to flank their FB
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Post by evilcheadar »

How about using british cannons from the consulate?
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Post by charlemagen »

India vs Germany is a relatively even match up until Heavy cannons come out then it turns the tide into favoring German by a considerable amount
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

yeah heavy cannon are pretty op, the problem with siege eles is that even with the extra HP they still die just as fast as mortars because they cound as cavalry, so muskets on hand attack get x3 dragoons x3 etc... depending on map I might jump around and start to make another 2 FB to test strength in multiple areas and see where I can get in. The only time I've lost to germany as india was playing lt coloniel who just rained in dopple squads all around me forcing me to stay defensive as he eventually wore me out. Though I did steam roll him one game as well.
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Post by zoom »

Light cavalry does no bonus damage to Siege Elephants.
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Post by evilcheadar »

zoom wrote:Light cavalry does no bonus damage to Siege Elephants.
Excellent
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Post by evilcheadar »

So the moral of the story is to delete more vills?
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Post by Magnam »

I think the best way to beat German with India is to use your early game. U will win the start fight at 40 really hard. Try to kill his fb building vills with a few gendarms and wall up your flanks. Also try to build some deep walls directed to his base so u wall his flanks too. Then u can use those flanks to push hard. Always try to keep your mansadbar gurkha/sepoy(if u play with sepoys) alive and rebuild them as soon as they die. Also keep spamming tigers(I love these tigers :D). If the game continues and German pushs u back I would probably try to use the cannons from British consulate and playing howdha/gurkha and some mahouts and siege eles which u use as culvs. But as already mentioned as soon as Germany gets their hc j are pretty much screwed :D
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Post by jaype22 »

zoom wrote:Light cavalry does no bonus damage to Siege Elephants.
Of course they do, siege elephants have the artillery tag.

To answer the topic: German wins in the long run pretty easily, the only good thing India has is the massive starting advantage. If the German player settled down with a decent fb and good walling India won''t be able to do much since siege elephants are an awful unit.
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

hmmm.... I will have to do some test with the siege ele because they also have a cavalry tag so I'm not sure if they are getting x2 or x3. but with 30% resist they dont last much longer than a mortar. since goons do about 100 damage to seige you have 70 attack on siege ele vs 25 on mortar, siege ele have a little less than 3x hp of mortar but also take nearly 3x damage so it works out to be about the same, and considerable less range. Really their best advantage is speed and almost no set up time.

You can delete vills only after you have stockpiled some food for a few minutes after your trade. if you do it too early you risk fighting with no food the whole game. but in the game we played no one is going to beat germany if they have a 33 military pop advange,

I still think India should win this matchup most of the time because india units are stronger than german ones and they can easily remake FB that get hit by dopples. But 20 tigers is game changing battle play so are a must to protect brahmin and keep them out and constantly making FB
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Post by princeofcarthage »

imo this is one of the hardest mu for india along with brit and port.
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Keep in mind I'm thinking about treaty in which each civ is at full strength, I play india pretty much exclusively now. toughest civs for me are ports/ china, france (maybe the toughest? I just wont play that OPness), brits/ spain (these I think are maybe equal to india and is all about mirco skills). the rest all fall in the middle range and the natives aren't much problem. Iros could be... india pretty much forces germs to go skirm/ WW but I think india can still out infantry that, what would make germs so tough?
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Post by Magnam »

The fact that German can build towers and get their heavy cannon as shipment makes them so tough. And their strong eco. Towers are just insanely strong vs India because u will have a hard time to kill them without mortars from your mates. Same goes for cannons. Siege eles can be used as culvs and it kinda works but its by far not as effective as real culvs are. So in the long run German should win most of the time. Actually what I like to do with India try to run into the enemey natives with a few sepoys after treaty ends. It can have a huge impact on the game if u build up there and try to control the natives.(on Andes) another thing I like to do is walk past your enemeys army with a few seppys and start build right behind or in his frontbase. Sometimes ppl are too focused on the fight and notice it to late so you can deal some major dmg he has to pull some of his army back and u can kill his towers real quick ')
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

granted what you said is true keep in mind tigers and howdas are pretty good at killing artillery too. I sometimes even use them on hand attack to rush a group of cannon. You definitely cant afford to have them mass 3 heavy cannon. jumping around with your FB is a vital part of the strat. if hes too concentrated with cannon in one area stealthily build a castle and then hit hard at his walls in another place. I duuno, in all the 1v1 match ups I've done and in FFA i always feel India has easier time with germany than most. Its not easy but you end up draining them because they need to make lots of WW and uhlans.
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Post by evilcheadar »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:granted what you said is true keep in mind tigers and howdas are pretty good at killing artillery too. I sometimes even use them on hand attack to rush a group of cannon. You definitely cant afford to have them mass 3 heavy cannon. jumping around with your FB is a vital part of the strat. if hes too concentrated with cannon in one area stealthily build a castle and then hit hard at his walls in another place. I duuno, in all the 1v1 match ups I''ve done and in FFA i always feel India has easier time with germany than most. Its not easy but you end up draining them because they need to make lots of WW and uhlans.
Well how do you go about killing the skirm mass that Germany usually has? any gurkahs you make will be cut down easily by cannon/uhlans and your anti inf, the mahout can be focused down easily by war wagons that resist 20.00% melee not to mention dopelsoldners. Sowars suck also and use like 2 cards if you try to use them. The cannons from the british consulate take too long to come in and export is more limited. That''s why I think this MU feels impossible.
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

well that could be said about any civ using counters for yours. a skrim/ light cav combo is pretty common. and gurka are better, so you match it to nullify his and make howdas which resist wagon fire. target howdas to cannon and i like to have at least 2 siege eles at all times. maybe more if they go really heavy on cannon. and then u have 20 tigers that kill anything... i think u underestimate tigers. in that game u made 10! ten tigers...... those will rip skirms and cannon and do pretty well vs anything else. except dopples.... for those either mass infantry or use urumi with infantry for more efficient killing. a 470 hp 59 attack sepoy does a lot to discourage germs cav and dopple spam. forcing them to go defensive with the skirm howda. I always have some sepoy in there in case of a uhlan charge i put them on melee mode.

I never use camels, i don't know why people do, i think they are an age 2 unit and after than u should use eles. if they trained as fast as regular cav maybe ok, but for the slow train its such a weak unit. I dont really use rajputs either unless fighting aztec. I used to not like flail elephants but now I do like them a lot for certain situations like trying to remove a FB or once I've gotten in a base and need to clear it out, they are nice faster training hard hitting siege. and more cost effective than eles.

Yeah you cant rely on consolate armies, they are good for start army and then a supplement u can use sometimes. but india has so many splash units they can take armies out faster than artillery can. mahouts, urumi( vs some civs), chakrams. with a back bone of strong inf is what makes india so strong (oh and did i mention tigers??).
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Post by evilcheadar »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:well that could be said about any civ using counters for yours. a skrim/ light cav combo is pretty common. and gurka are better, so you match it to nullify his and make howdas which resist wagon fire. target howdas to cannon and i like to have at least 2 siege eles at all times. maybe more if they go really heavy on cannon. and then u have 20 tigers that kill anything... i think u underestimate tigers. in that game u made 10! ten tigers...... those will rip skirms and cannon and do pretty well vs anything else. except dopples.... for those either mass infantry or use urumi with infantry for more efficient killing. a 470 hp 59 attack sepoy does a lot to discourage germs cav and dopple spam. forcing them to go defensive with the skirm howda. I always have some sepoy in there in case of a uhlan charge i put them on melee mode.

I never use camels, i don''t know why people do, i think they are an age 2 unit and after than u should use eles. if they trained as fast as regular cav maybe ok, but for the slow train its such a weak unit. I dont really use rajputs either unless fighting aztec. I used to not like flail elephants but now I do like them a lot for certain situations like trying to remove a FB or once I''ve gotten in a base and need to clear it out, they are nice faster training hard hitting siege. and more cost effective than eles.

Yeah you cant rely on consolate armies, they are good for start army and then a supplement u can use sometimes. but india has so many splash units they can take armies out faster than artillery can. mahouts, urumi( vs some civs), chakrams. with a back bone of strong inf is what makes india so strong (oh and did i mention tigers??).
It can''t be said for every civ because you can''t spam siege elpehnent like you can spam culvrin or horse arty. Not only do siege ele take way more pop they also will bankrupt you. The pop spaces your out of will not let you make many more sepoys which can defend the siege elpehents. all the while being shot at continuously by a mass of skirms.
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Post by howlingwolfpaw »

any civ (ok euro civs) can make cannon light inf and light cav as a combo. watch some india booms on you tube I think there are few things you could do to stream line your boom. I think i was in age 5 like 4min 18sec faster than u were. I don't remember your deck exactly but I think you also had a superfluous coin card that you would only use if you ran out of coin from your fur trade. adding war elephants can also help with a push vs skirms.
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Post by Magnam »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:any civ (ok euro civs) can make cannon light inf and light cav as a combo


And every euro civ except Dutch and maybe Otto has the advantage over India :D
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Post by evilcheadar »

Basically my argument is that yea, india might have the advantage at the tip off, but india has no replaceability if anything goes wrong and momentum is not continued in the strongest way possible.
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