Healers: Why are they never used?

abbadan · Post by **abbadan** » 18 Oct 2015, 00:09

I'm curious why no one ever seems to use any kind of healer: priests, medics, healing tents, whatever? Wouldn't it make sense to have them for special or costly units (like mercs, fortwags and curos...)?
If you're GOOD and don't use them, please explain why not or if you have used them, please say what situatioon you do?
Thanks,
AbbaDan

gibson · Post by **gibson** » 18 Oct 2015, 00:34

It would make sense and be coat efficient for them to heal a high cost unit but other then that they are worthless. However, practically no one ever things to use them because they are generally considered worthless because they generally are worthless. You have to idle military for it to heal which is a huge draw back....

imperial · Post by **imperial** » 18 Oct 2015, 01:07

because of reasons

lukasl99 · Post by **lukasl99** » 18 Oct 2015, 01:33

Units rarely stand still and do nothing, so healers wont pay off. The only time where healers are useful is in NR40/DM with Spanish and their unction (probably other treaty modes aswell).

periloushare · Post by **periloushare** » 18 Oct 2015, 02:17

Aztecs build healers, but don't use them as such. Warrior Priests can heal, but can also heal all units while dancing at the firepit. Indian Monks heal too, but it's more of a bonus thing in addition to all the other things they do.

Mimsy for President · Post by **Mimsy for President** » 18 Oct 2015, 02:48

I use an Imam to heal my mams if I really have to.

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 18 Oct 2015, 04:28

In treaty, healers are good for healing cannon as they usually are idle enough to benefit. Healers are also good to station near your daimyos and shoguns, even though the monks too can heal. Besides, I just like army medics, having been one myself.

I really don't know why supremacy players don't make at least one healer. As close as many of your battles are I'd say a healer would be a good addition.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 18 Oct 2015, 06:13

Because they're expansive.

wuziqii · Post by **wuziqii** » 18 Oct 2015, 06:29

http://www.twitch.tv/aiz11/c/6293171 u can see Azimk used it,and made at least 20 priest

DerMaxinator · Post by **DerMaxinator** » 18 Oct 2015, 07:54

diarouga wrote:Because they''re expansive.

+1

britishmusketeer · Post by **britishmusketeer** » 18 Oct 2015, 11:10

Also if you have expensive units your opponent will probably focus fire them.

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 18 Oct 2015, 13:49

The actual reason is because they don't feel during movement/combat. Given that aspect of them, they're kinda expensive, especially since you need a church for them aswell. Just note how infrequently indian explorers get to heal units.

I'd consider making some healers if they healed during combat, that could actually be very strong. Maybe their healing speed is still too low for it though.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 18 Oct 2015, 15:29

Tbh I think everyone just jumps on the bandwagon that healers are bad just because everyone jumps on it too. I doubt anyone did enough testing to say without a doubt that healers are never good. It's just one of those things that is really hard to test, because it's very difficult to quantify the advantage of healing your units, or the advantage vs disadvantage of keeping your units still for a little etc (having 10 units at half health is WAY better than having 5 units at full health). We can make theories, but I doubt that most even has an idea of what the healing rate is. So I agree that at face value making healers doesn't seem so great, but I think that there isn't a definitive answer simply because afaik nobody has done extensive testing, and the intricate mechanics and stuff you can do with healers can't just be negated with a one liner.

Marco1698 · Post by **Marco1698** » 18 Oct 2015, 17:10

Useless for their cost

mongobillione · Post by **mongobillione** » 18 Oct 2015, 17:20

lukasl99 wrote:Units rarely stand still and do nothing, so healers wont pay off. The only time where healers are useful is in NR40/DM with Spanish and their unction (probably other treaty modes aswell).

3v3 rush on deccan unction fi is gg 1v3

momuuu · Post by **momuuu** » 18 Oct 2015, 23:21

ovi12 wrote:Tbh I think everyone just jumps on the bandwagon that healers are bad just because everyone jumps on it too. I doubt anyone did enough testing to say without a doubt that healers are never good. It''s just one of those things that is really hard to test, because it''s very difficult to quantify the advantage of healing your units, or the advantage vs disadvantage of keeping your units still for a little etc (having 10 units at half health is WAY better than having 5 units at full health). We can make theories, but I doubt that most even has an idea of what the healing rate is. So I agree that at face value making healers doesn''t seem so great, but I think that there isn''t a definitive answer simply because afaik nobody has done extensive testing, and the intricate mechanics and stuff you can do with healers can''t just be negated with a one liner.

I did mention how infrequently the indian explorers get to heal in an average game though. The heal rate is not significant in their current form, it''s really that the army has to stand still and not do anything for it to matter. Which is simply something that doesnt happen often enough, and it barely happens that you get to heal more than 5 units with it (in terms of hp). Its a pretty big investment to do something that isn''t that impactful.

If they could heal during a battle, it''d be worth testing it some though. Kinda like the sc medics or sc2 medivacs, which are very strong units in those games.

yurashic · Post by **yurashic** » 19 Oct 2015, 00:26

Because you have to waste 100 wood on a church and waste 200 gold on a completely useless unit.

In supremacy 1 big fight usually decides the game. If you lose it there is nothing left to heal. If you win it you go and harass enemy eco till he dies and there is no place for healers. If you want to use healers go play MMORPG.

evilcheadar · Post by **evilcheadar** » 19 Oct 2015, 00:37

yurashic wrote:Because you have to waste 100 wood on a church and waste 200 gold on a completely useless unit.

In supremacy 1 big fight usually decides the game. If you lose it there is nothing left to heal. If you win it you go and harass enemy eco till he dies and there is no place for healers. If you want to use healers go play MMORPG.

This couldn''t be anymore wrong.

yurashic · Post by **yurashic** » 19 Oct 2015, 00:38

evilcheadar wrote:
yurashic wrote:Because you have to waste 100 wood on a church and waste 200 gold on a completely useless unit.

In supremacy 1 big fight usually decides the game. If you lose it there is nothing left to heal. If you win it you go and harass enemy eco till he dies and there is no place for healers. If you want to use healers go play MMORPG.
This couldnt be anymore wrong.

Yeah I wrote that just for fun.

evilcheadar · Post by **evilcheadar** » 19 Oct 2015, 00:39

yurashic wrote:
evilcheadar wrote:This couldnt be anymore wrong.

Yeah I wrote that just for fun.

Figures

noissance · Post by **noissance** » 20 Oct 2015, 14:24

Hey what about the france hero card, it lets your explorer get healing ability and an immortal war pet.

yemshi · Post by **yemshi** » 20 Oct 2015, 14:39

There are better things to send.

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 20 Oct 2015, 15:01

The hero will not be able to heal like Indian monks, but he will be able to use a healing "circle" ability that takes too fucking long to recharge for it to be of any use. But since you can target anything you could quickly heal up your damaged falconets. There are many other better colonial cards for France though.

noissance · Post by **noissance** » 24 Oct 2015, 04:07

best healers are japanese monks, because they get other abilities too, in late game at least... (sabotage, divine strike bonus, healing tech)

Einfein · Post by **Einfein** » 24 Oct 2015, 06:12

Healers in TAD are a far cry from what they were in earlier age games. In previous games they could convert enemy units and I believe heal in combat. In TAD they are expensive, slow (for most civs) and usually can't keep up with an army that is on the move. These and other reasons already mentioned basically cover why they are rarely used. I personally believe they do have a place in supremacy, but only in the late game (refer to some players mentioning them in long treaty games etc).

There was an expert player way back in vanilla named Black_Ice_Spain (or something close) and I remember him trying to use healers for awhile and prove they are viable and have a place in supremacy. Ultimately he stopped using them because there were always better things to build. They've been like this since day one in this game and when AoE3 was new people were complaining about them early and often, but ES never did anything with them.

/shrug

ESOC

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