What changed to make Germany the top civ?

[farran34]

As far as I know, not long ago Germany was not considered to be an OP or incredibly strong civ. I thought most rated France and British higher. An example is of me noticing this change is in the France vs Germany mu.
France used to be considered to win this mu by a good margin from what I heard, but now most think Germany wins it. Why all the sudden did this mu change (like many of Germany's mus appear to have changed), neither Germany nor France were buffed or nerfed, and there were plenty of re maps with tps and at least 1 or 2 hunts in base.

Obviously Germany got buffed in the sense that Iro and Otto got nerfed, but so did all other civs like France. I am just curious as to what in the current meta changed to make Germany be considered by most to be the top civ, when in the near past Germany was considered generally weaker than France and British.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Because of the tp meta.
Few years ago, germany couldn't age3 vs an age2 timing. Today, they can just age3 for free vs every civs (except azzy).
And in age3, they just win because they have a good eco and op shipments.

[Jaeger]

Diarouga mentioned the TP, but that was discovered a few years ago and germany wasnt considered OP by most until this year.

I think there are 2 main factors that contributed to germany being classified as OP this year:

- The decline in use of war wagons; most top players agree that there is almost never a situation where you should make war wagons, and I have had the same experience

-Most top players only started playing Germany and streaming their gameplay less than a year ago, so there wasn't much knowledge about germany around. Everybody (including other top players) was able to watch the streams and refine their own gameplay by doing superior builds (for example 3 SW 700w 700g while making 10 uhlans is often superior) and learning how to hold timings (h2o is by far the greatest contributor here with hiss vill defence, micro, and game knowledge).

Blackstar beat h2o with germany repeatedly on stream, then h2o started saying they're OP, then everybody else started playing them

[Garja]

Most top players, aka everyone except h2o, used to play Germans since forever. German semi is as old as 2009 at the very least, just with 200w TP you can age at 7.40 which is essentially what makes it OP.
And from there are all the other variations to the build.

[Jaeger]

Most top players, aka everyone except h2o, used to play Germans since forever. German semi is as old as 2009 at the very least, just with 200w TP you can age at 7.40 which is essentially what makes it OP.
And from there are all the other variations to the build.

But I don't think they were playing germany very well, it was just one of those civs they would whip out once in a while and fumble around a bit so they wouldn't know how to really make them OP.

[Garja]

German civ has always been one of the most played.

[Mitoe]

I think the big change recently is the use of wood shipments. Specifically the 3 SW 700w 700c variation of the semi-FF.

In the past the most popular way to play Germany was do 3 SW 700c while making 5 uhlans, and then ship 8 skirm 7 skirm 9 uhlan 8 uhlan (in no particular order). Some people (including myself) tried to make the adaption with shipping 700w after 700c, or even shipping 1000w as the first age 3 card, but this is much more awkward than the current 3 SW 700w 700c build for a few reasons that I'm currently too lazy to list. Basically the latter build is just a lot safer and more versatile that the former, whereas the other build incurs a slightly greater risk vs timings.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah 3sw 700w 700g beats a timing, wtf...

[Garja]

3sw 700w 700g isnt even good btw. If the plan is to use 700w for colonial stuff then send it first.

[momuuu]

Maybe what changed is that h2o lost a lot to bsop playing germany and then manipulated the community into thinking germany is OP?

[Garja]

Not really, h2o was one of the last guys to jump on the German (settler) wagon.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah everybody was already playing german in QS when h2o came back.

[deleted_user0]

Maybe what changed is that h2o lost a lot to bsop playing germany and then manipulated the community into thinking germany is OP?

H2O is the reason anything has ever happened in aoe3... duh

[Kaiserklein]

Because of the tp meta.
Few years ago, germany couldn't age3 vs an age2 timing. Today, they can just age3 for free vs every civs (except azzy).
And in age3, they just win because they have a good eco and op shipments.

Realistically, Germany can never age up for free if the opponent pressures, whatever his civ is (except probs ports or japs, arguably). You can always force the german player to ship 8 bows or call mm, or destroy his tp on most maps, and delay age up by harassing vils... I can't think of a semi ff build that will prevent that.

Germany is a very strong civ for sure but I still believe people don't try to punish their colonial enough

[[Armag] diarouga]

Because of the tp meta.
Few years ago, germany couldn't age3 vs an age2 timing. Today, they can just age3 for free vs every civs (except azzy).
And in age3, they just win because they have a good eco and op shipments.

Realistically, Germany can never age up for free if the opponent pressures, whatever his civ is (except probs ports or japs, arguably). You can always force the german player to ship 8 bows or call mm, or destroy his tp on most maps, and delay age up by harassing vils... I can't think of a semi ff build that will prevent that.

Germany is a very strong civ for sure but I still believe people don't try to punish their colonial enough

If you send a military shipment and your opponent also does and goes low eco, then you age up for free.

[Kaiserklein]

Because of the tp meta.
Few years ago, germany couldn't age3 vs an age2 timing. Today, they can just age3 for free vs every civs (except azzy).
And in age3, they just win because they have a good eco and op shipments.

Realistically, Germany can never age up for free if the opponent pressures, whatever his civ is (except probs ports or japs, arguably). You can always force the german player to ship 8 bows or call mm, or destroy his tp on most maps, and delay age up by harassing vils... I can't think of a semi ff build that will prevent that.

Germany is a very strong civ for sure but I still believe people don't try to punish their colonial enough

If you send a military shipment and your opponent also does and goes low eco, then you age up for free.

But he doesn't need to go low eco or to send a military shipment

[Marco1698]

Because of the tp meta.
Few years ago, germany couldn't age3 vs an age2 timing. Today, they can just age3 for free vs every civs (except azzy).
And in age3, they just win because they have a good eco and op shipments.

+1

[deuxballesman]

To answer the original question, the things that changed to make germany op is just the nerf of iro and otto!

[farran34]

To answer the original question, the things that changed to make germany op is just the nerf of iro and otto!

Well again this wouldn't make sense because then by that logic british and france would also be op. It seems to me the main reason Germany got stronger (from reading this post) is adopting 2sw 3sw 700wd 700gd as the standard BO for semi-ff, increased defensive skills due to watching top players like H2O stream, and decreased usage of War Wagons.

[Kaiserklein]

To answer the original question, the things that changed to make germany op is just the nerf of iro and otto!

Well again this wouldn't make sense because then by that logic british and france would also be op. It seems to me the main reason Germany got stronger (from reading this post) is adopting 2sw 3sw 700wd 700gd as the standard BO for semi-ff, increased defensive skills due to watching top players like H2O stream, and decreased usage of War Wagons.

You're completely wrong. Germany is top civ because they have those war wagons. Also palatine settlements

[Garja]

increased defensive skill makes no sense. Just you get 6 free ulhans in colonial and age up potentially at 7.30. 7.30 is faster than a spanish ff, and that is kinda safe I can tell you.

[farran34]

increased defensive skill makes no sense. Just you get 6 free ulhans in colonial and age up potentially at 7.30. 7.30 is faster than a spanish ff, and that is kinda safe I can tell you.

I was more going by what Ovi said, I am not sure if he is right or not however. Defensive skills are needed for Germany I think though, since the strongest counters vs Germany were (maybe still are) considered timing pushes against the German semi-ff which takes good villager micro, building placement, and knowledge of when and how to engage (with uhlans and minutemen ext.) to hold the push.

Also on a side note, since I dont know Germany very well, if you are aging 7:30 I am assuming you are not sending 700wd. What BO do you use if Germany is to age around 7:30, I would guess 3sw 700gd but I know some would go 3sw 2sw?

[farran34]

You're completely wrong. Germany is top civ because they have those war wagons. Also palatine settlements

I personally don't think War Wagons are terrible units but considering H2O and others basically say to NEVER use them, I would have to question your statement, "Germany is top civ because they have those war wagons"

[Mimsy for President]

I don't think 3sw 700w 700c is necessarily better than 3sw 700c 700w except in mirror for obvious reasons. I'd personally go for only one batch of uhlans vs Brit or even French if it goes full colonial.

[farran34]

I don't think 3sw 700w 700c is necessarily better than 3sw 700c 700w except in mirror for obvious reasons. I'd personally go for only one batch of uhlans vs Brit or even French if it goes full colonial.

You may be right, I was just repeating what some said in this thread like Ovi and Mitoe. I don't know Germany well enough to argue for either build though honestly, although it seems if Germany can truly hold timing pushes with sneaking in 700wd before 700gd, which seems to be suggested in this thread, it would often be better.