Germany vs Spain awkward?

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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by lukasl99 »

Hello guys,

I've been playing lots of Germans in the past and I was fine vs any civ except a Spanish guy FFing, then sending 2 falcs and pikes. I feel like a cav semi FF is so awkward in this situation cause you end up with so many uhlans, don't have a cannon shipment and WW arent really that great especially if he sends rods (which are even faster than WW). I always end up with my vills fighting and I feel it's way more close than it should be. Any tips or recordings?
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by CuCkO0 »

Mercs!

Landsknecht OP! so are jaeger, black riders and so on... ???
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by musketjr »

it depends who you're playing. if you're talking about the pirokishi style of spain ff, i dont have any advice. but in general black riders are very good in this MU. on nilla i used to like to no eco ff as german, prioritising speed and getting BR out:

500f age, build a tp, dont even market - bo is 700coin, palatine houses, BR. after you click ageup (6 skirm) shift most vills to coin.
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by WickedCossack »

I'm a fan of the no eco/straight FF vs spain aswell. Most spainish players won't cotton to the fact that you're essentially blind-countering them and continue with their standard FF build. And by most, I literally mean everyone apart from a couple of players.

I didn't realise you could get out BR in time tho musket, you can get 1k coin in time and have enough houses left to send them ? That's very interesting to know if you can.

I have just been doing the build with the 400wd age up then fast age, and only 700c in age 2 and just sending unit shipments in III and building either skirms or uhlans from one production facility (I'm not sure which one is better, I've tried both stable and rax, both seem ok)

When the big fight comes pull your villagers, call MM and hopefully you can clean up the push.

Edit: 1 TP aswell.
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

musketjr wrote:it depends who you''re playing. if you''re talking about the pirokishi style of spain ff, i dont have any advice. but in general black riders are very good in this MU. on nilla i used to like to no eco ff as german, prioritising speed and getting BR out:

500f age, build a tp, dont even market - bo is 700coin, palatine houses, BR. after you click ageup (6 skirm) shift most vills to coin.
Palatine houses?
Imo, just keep your shipment :P
I know cav semi works sometimes.
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by CuCkO0 »

What's so special about piroshki's style?
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

He sucks. He does a 12vills ff every games.
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by musketjr »

cucko0 wrote:What''s so special about piroshki''s style?
it''s just super fast, and ive played him about once ever so i have no clue how german vs his spain would go.

and yea you get the BR out in time, iirc you wont have wood for a rax when you hit fortress but that''s ok.

dia: palatine saves alot of wood though, and being housed in less of an issue while you''re waiting for BR to pop out. it is an eco card in how much less wood you have to chop, just one that seems to work well with a risky no eco FF.
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by musketjr »

wickedcossack wrote:I''m a fan of the no eco/straight FF vs spain aswell. Most spainish players won''t cotton to the fact that you''re essentially blind-countering them and continue with their standard FF build. And by most, I literally mean everyone apart from a couple of players.

I didn''t realise you could get out BR in time tho musket, you can get 1k coin in time and have enough houses left to send them ? That''s very interesting to know if you can.

I have just been doing the build with the 400wd age up then fast age, and only 700c in age 2 and just sending unit shipments in III and building either skirms or uhlans from one production facility (I''m not sure which one is better, I''ve tried both stable and rax, both seem ok)

When the big fight comes pull your villagers, call MM and hopefully you can clean up the push.

Edit: 1 TP aswell.
i''m not sure how the falc and anticav would die though. you could be training WW to snipe the cannons, while sending skirms.
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Post by WickedCossack »

musketjr wrote:
wickedcossack wrote:Im a fan of the no eco/straight FF vs spain aswell. Most spainish players wont cotton to the fact that youre essentially blind-countering them and continue with their standard FF build. And by most, I literally mean everyone apart from a couple of players.

I didnt realise you could get out BR in time tho musket, you can get 1k coin in time and have enough houses left to send them ? Thats very interesting to know if you can.

I have just been doing the build with the 400wd age up then fast age, and only 700c in age 2 and just sending unit shipments in III and building either skirms or uhlans from one production facility (Im not sure which one is better, Ive tried both stable and rax, both seem ok)

When the big fight comes pull your villagers, call MM and hopefully you can clean up the push.

Edit: 1 TP aswell.
im not sure how the falc and anticav would die though. you could be training WW to snipe the cannons, while sending skirms.
Nah I dont train WW for the first push, they just get swamped by any rods/pikes.

Usually villagers can take out 1 falc pretty quick and the other dies to a bit of everything, some skirm shots, vil shots, mm, maybe an uhlan swipe if youre lucky. Its a pretty scrappy engagement not gonna lie but Germans usually come out ahead and then power on with superior shipments. Anti-cav isnt too bad to clean up once the falcs are dealt with.
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

wickedcossack wrote:
musketjr wrote:im not sure how the falc and anticav would die though. you could be training WW to snipe the cannons, while sending skirms.
Nah I dont train WW for the first push, they just get swamped by any rods/pikes.

Usually villagers can take out 1 falc pretty quick and the other dies to a bit of everything, some skirm shots, vil shots, mm, maybe an uhlan swipe if youre lucky. Its a pretty scrappy engagement not gonna lie but Germans usually come out ahead and then power on with superior shipments. Anti-cav isnt too bad to clean up once the falcs are dealt with.
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Post by Mitoe »

In this matchup I like to do a naked FF, but usually leave the option to semi if need be:

- Always TP or market in age 1, depending on crate start and build the other in transition. In this particular matchup I might even go out of my way to build a TP in age 1 regardless of the crate start (the only time it's not possible is with 200f 100w 100c) as aging with 18v (if you need to) is not a problem, and will not slow down your fortress time at all since you'll have an extra villager gathering in transition, and the extra shipment or two is huge in holding those early fortress timings.
- Age with 400w and in transition gather for hunting dogs (if you didn't get a market already), placer mines, and an extra 125w for steel traps. Then put ~5 SW and 1-2 vills on coin, and the rest on food.
- With the 400w drop 2 houses and leave the rest of the wood for now. Ship 3 SW. Make sure to scout continuously once you're up, just in case he tries anything funny. If he does anything aggressive, drop a military building with the wood you have left and switch to a semi-FF. If you go with a rax as your military building, you can even buy wood with the coin you have to get xbow/pike out or build houses. Hold with minutemen and 8 xbows as your next card' follow up with 700c and fast age (usually).
- Now, assuming he doesn't try anything crazy, next card is 700w. Gather resources to age (always use fast age in this case). Try to keep your 4 uhlans alive, as they will be very important in holding the falc/pike timing. In transition to fortress drop a rax and a stable and houses as needed but save 200w for veteran uhlans, and you might need 2-3 villagers on wood in early fortress (be sure to get gang saw once you transition a lot of vills to wood). You'll be up at ~7:20-40 with a shipment ready, stable and rax ready, and practically all of your eco upgrades. Vs Spain, if they're doing the falc/pike push, a skirm/WW batch (in tandem with an 8 skirm shipment) + MM is usually preferred, but depending on the map you might not have enough food for WW, in which case you'll have to try to just power through it with skirm/uhlan, but with proper micro you should be able to pick off the anticav and be just fine, IMO, and once the falcs are dead, you can easily stabilize with another shipment' then just continue massing skirm/uhlan or skirm/uhlan/WW and push out.

Hope this helped. Maybe I'll try to post a rec next time I play this matchup or something :P
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

mitoe wrote:In this matchup I like to do a naked FF, but usually leave the option to semi if need be:

- Always TP or market in age 1, depending on crate start and build the other in transition. In this particular matchup I might even go out of my way to build a TP in age 1 regardless of the crate start (the only time it''s not possible is with 200f 100w 100c) as aging with 18v (if you need to) is not a problem, and will not slow down your fortress time at all since you''ll have an extra villager gathering in transition, and the extra shipment or two is huge in holding those early fortress timings.
- Age with 400w and in transition gather for hunting dogs (if you didn''t get a market already), placer mines, and an extra 125w for steel traps. Then put ~5 SW and 1-2 vills on coin, and the rest on food.
- With the 400w drop 2 houses and leave the rest of the wood for now. Ship 3 SW. Make sure to scout continuously once you''re up, just in case he tries anything funny. If he does anything aggressive, drop a military building with the wood you have left and switch to a semi-FF. If you go with a rax as your military building, you can even buy wood with the coin you have to get xbow/pike out or build houses. Hold with minutemen and 8 xbows as your next card' follow up with 700c and fast age (usually).
- Now, assuming he doesn''t try anything crazy, next card is 700w. Gather resources to age (always use fast age in this case). Try to keep your 4 uhlans alive, as they will be very important in holding the falc/pike timing. In transition to fortress drop a rax and a stable and houses as needed but save 200w for veteran uhlans, and you might need 2-3 villagers on wood in early fortress (be sure to get gang saw once you transition a lot of vills to wood). You''ll be up at ~7:20-40 with a shipment ready, stable and rax ready, and practically all of your eco upgrades. Vs Spain, if they''re doing the falc/pike push, a skirm/WW batch (in tandem with an 8 skirm shipment) + MM is usually preferred, but depending on the map you might not have enough food for WW, in which case you''ll have to try to just power through it with skirm/uhlan, but with proper micro you should be able to pick off the anticav and be just fine, IMO, and once the falcs are dead, you can easily stabilize with another shipment' then just continue massing skirm/uhlan or skirm/uhlan/WW and push out.

Hope this helped. Maybe I''ll try to post a rec next time I play this matchup or something :P
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Post by Mitoe »

Was it too much? :P
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Post by Garja »

Dopp semi works fine
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Post by Mitoe »

But what are your dopps going to do once you hit fortress? :/ Seems like a waste to me.
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Post by Garja »

Dopps are always good vs spain just like rods are always good vs germans. Skirm dopps ulhans is the combo you want vs skirm rods lancers
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Post by Mitoe »

garja wrote:Dopps are always good vs spain just like rods are always good vs germans. Skirm dopps ulhans is the combo you want vs skirm rods lancers
The reason rods are good vs Germans is because Germany doesn''t have a musket unit, or a lot of heavy infantry in general. As Germany however, dopps are only really useful in age 2, IMO, because in age 3 skirms do such a good job of countering pikes and rods that you might as well just make 10 skirms instead of 5 dopps. And with proper micro I feel that WW would be much more useful vs skirm/rod/lancer than dopps =S
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Post by Jaeger »

Having 5 dopps in your deck can also be useful, i usually split my skirms into 2 or 3 separate groups and try to pick off any units, and when the 5 dopp shipment comes out of the TC you can come from 2/3 sides with skirm uhlan and the dopps+3 uhlan+mm from the TC and crush them.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

In tad its a bit diff but in nilla spain rapes ger. Rods just beat spain like garja said. BR is the best thing for ger but still spain should win. Speed is key tho here for spain i think. But regardkess of the version, rod lancer skir is one of the most lethal combos in aoe. If played by a good player who doesnt just rely on the shipmrnts but rather the pressure to take leads for spain to get this combo going, its almist unstoppable.

Vs br soain should jyst semd cans a bit later, or not at All. Skir rod will do fine!
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Post by Jaeger »

umeu wrote:In tad its a bit diff but in nilla spain rapes ger. Rods just beat spain like garja said. BR is the best thing for ger but still spain should win. Speed is key tho here for spain i think. But regardkess of the version, rod lancer skir is one of the most lethal combos in aoe. If played by a good player who doesnt just rely on the shipmrnts but rather the pressure to take leads for spain to get this combo going, its almist unstoppable.

Vs br soain should jyst semd cans a bit later, or not at All. Skir rod will do fine!
Arent vet huss better than lancers? They have more HP, can raid, can catch raids. Also do you have any recs of good spain players preferably on TAD?
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Post by SoldieR »

I've played hundreds of German games, and Spain is the biggest counter to ger.

Two options, both which start the same:

Both require a tp during age up.
Carefully watch his town as he ages, find where the tower will set, make fax asap and send 3sw. Make 4 dops, and siege the tower down. This slows his entire strategy substantially. From there you choose to either go fortress yourself, or stay and fight, either way, send 700g and choose to either age fast and send skirm or mercs, or stay age 2 make dops, then send xb shipment and prepare to fight his army by coming at the cannons by 3 or 4 sides. The best way to micro this is by showing ur 4-6 Cav, have his pike chase, then send in dops on cannons, and maybe have 2 Cav come from another side, and front the front, have the xb and MM go in. You have to micro very well, and outplay him quite a bit, but if you have about 12 dopps, you can smash his army and end the game quickly.
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Post by Mitoe »

iamsoldier wrote:I''ve played hundreds of German games, and Spain is the biggest counter to ger.
You think so? I feel like the only problem with that matchup is the 2 falcs =S Germany is better in every other way though.
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Post by SoldieR »

The falcs combined with the amount of heavy inf and German low HP Cav..its hard to get to the falcs. And lancers with bonus on skirm.

Like picture Spain age with 8 pike, make 5 rod, ship falc, make 5 rods, ship 4 lancer and follow with skirm. Not much a 3 ww and skirm army will do
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Germany vs Spain awkward?

Post by CuCkO0 »

umeu wrote:Rods just beat spain like garja said.
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