France vs Japan

[Plantinator]

Well this a Video for a french cav semi right? I can assure u if u try that vs a good japan player u will be really sad haha

[Scroogie]

Forget cav vs japan :p
Either start musk or bow/pike.
Then, you can take tp and semi or build 2 raxes and be agressive.

Iirc in the semifinals that year, you lost that mu to h2o's cav semi, did that work just because of the age1 or skill gap?

[Astaroth]

I always wonder why nobody ever goes for an aggro straight FF (no semi) as France vs Japan. This build is pretty strong for Spain and France's FF isn't that much worse. They have less mass and anti-cav, but get more skirms to kite yumi and pick off vills.

E.g. something like this: 3 cdb-4 cdb-(700c? not sure)-700w with forward rax (maybe even forward tower for shipments). Obviously only do this if he isn't playing aggro or full age2 nagi/ashi (scout!). This strat seems like a decent counter vs. standard Japanese semi FF/FF or Jap wall/yumi age2 or Jap boom/yumi semi FF.

I always wonder why France likes delaying their age3 (skirm, 2 falc right in Jap base) in order to train 5-10 musk or pike in age2, which kill like maybe 1 shrine (<1 vill) if Japan defends properly.

[chris1089]

Not sure spain is a good example. Normally hard mu for Spain (although maybe this is because Japan knows what they do more easily).

[Luciofrancosi]

Well this a Video for a french cav semi right? I can assure u if u try that vs a good japan player u will be really sad haha

He does a musk semi on this video and he is playing vs japan

[Rohbrot]

Not sure spain is a good example. Normally hard mu for Spain (although maybe this is because Japan knows what they do more easily).

Oh dude, you cant know what a shitfest it was to play @cosuco when he made 3-4layers of wall.

[Plantinator]

Well this a Video for a french cav semi right? I can assure u if u try that vs a good japan player u will be really sad haha

He does a musk semi on this video and he is playing vs japan

Hmm then i would just go to 4 with 2 falc send 2 heavies. Basically the build that @Mitoe always does vs brit should be good vs japan as well.

[hidden_blaze]

I always wonder why nobody ever goes for an aggro straight FF (no semi) as France vs Japan. This build is pretty strong for Spain and France's FF isn't that much worse. They have less mass and anti-cav, but get more skirms to kite yumi and pick off vills.

E.g. something like this: 3 cdb-4 cdb-(700c? not sure)-700w with forward rax (maybe even forward tower for shipments). Obviously only do this if he isn't playing aggro or full age2 nagi/ashi (scout!). This strat seems like a decent counter vs. standard Japanese semi FF/FF or Jap wall/yumi age2 or Jap boom/yumi semi FF.

I always wonder why France likes delaying their age3 (skirm, 2 falc right in Jap base) in order to train 5-10 musk or pike in age2, which kill like maybe 1 shrine (<1 vill) if Japan defends properly.

i see the problem with the france naked ff vs japan in the lack of anti cav and siege potential while also crippling your economy.
having some skirms is nice, but they do a bad job at sieging, so your entire siege potential lies within the falcs. That gives the japan player quite a bit of time to prepare a defense and destroy the falcs, after that its hard to accomplish something in the jap base. also, to defend your falcs properly, you'd need to train goons, which 1. isn't that easy to afford since you never sent 4 cdb, 2. decreases your siege potential even further and 3. makes them an easy target for yumi.
I think if the jap player just gets your falcs (which shouldn't be so hard with mostly skirms protecting it), he'll probably outboom you and win easily.
also with 10 pikes in age 2, you should definetly be able to get more than 1 shrine.

[Rohbrot]

10 pike semi sounds shit.

[chronique]

Never heard about semi pik vs japan as pik is not really a unit you want in age 3 and they are countered by ashi. I think semi 10/15 musk (pressure shrine) into musk/falc into skirm/cuir was meta before the 12/10, and should work well.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Forget cav vs japan :p
Either start musk or bow/pike.
Then, you can take tp and semi or build 2 raxes and be agressive.

Iirc in the semifinals that year, you lost that mu to h2o's cav semi, did that work just because of the age1 or skill gap?

A bit of everything ye. He got a great age 1, and still was not in a great spot in middle game, his micro saved him, but starting cav wasn't good.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The issue with musk semi is that you have nothing to deal with 5 yumis. I think 5 pike/10 bow semi is better. Pikes are useful all game against Japan (in some games, they might kill up to 8-10 shrines), and the bows will deal with the yumis and ashis. You don't want to train 10 pikes however, that's just way too much and you won't have units to defend them.

Straight ff (4cdb/700w) is an option against Japan, but unless you're a mad gambler you won't have a forward base (Japan will have at least the 7bows from the consulate, and often 5 ashis to deny it, and he will adapt to age 2 to kill it if he didn't manage to deny it), that's the major drawback.

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

Straight ff (4cdb/700w) is an option against Japan, but unless you're a mad gambler you won't have a forward base (Japan will have at least the 7bows from the consulate, and often 5 ashis to deny it, and he will adapt to age 2 to kill it if he didn't manage to deny it), that's the major drawback.

What do you call straight FF ? 700g then 700w+4cdb with skirm age up ? Or 4cdb+700w, gather all coin and age up fast ?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Straight ff (4cdb/700w) is an option against Japan, but unless you're a mad gambler you won't have a forward base (Japan will have at least the 7bows from the consulate, and often 5 ashis to deny it, and he will adapt to age 2 to kill it if he didn't manage to deny it), that's the major drawback.

What do you call straight FF ? 700g then 700w+4cdb with skirm age up ? Or 4cdb+700w, gather all coin and age up fast ?

The latter.

[chronique]

The issue with musk semi is that you have nothing to deal with 5 yumis.

That was a commot build though. I am not sure the japan player want send 5 yumi middle of the map and musk are more usefull in age 3. But i am not against xbow/pik semi ^^

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

You go age 2 with 400w, 200g+tower or 500f ?

[chronique]

I have never see any fr aging with other than 400w (unless yuza)

[Le Hussard sur le toit]

If you want to straight FF without 700g, it's a bit hard if you don't get 500f. I suppose you cut market upgrades but still.

[Hazza54321]

You go age 2 with 400w, 200g+tower or 500f ?

400w and use that for market upgrades rather than gathering as much wood in transition

[Kaiserklein]

Musk semi just sucks vs jap, they don't achieve anything in colo besides sieging shrines, and more slowly so than pikes. In fortress they don't achieve anything again because he just gets his own better musks, and flaming arrows early enough to defend your push.
The only times I go musk semi is when I scout they're being aggro. A combination of stuff like Torii age up, jap consulate in transition, very low shrine count, several vils on the wonder, etc. At that point you kinda know they'll go ashi so getting musks is fine, and they're delaying their fortress age by hurting their boom, so you'll probably have a window with falcs.

Anyway atm I think it's pretty clear that just going aggro with an early age up is an easy and strong way to play this MU. Can either go double rax super aggro if you're up really early, or just get stagecoach and hold the map. Add huss (or queue / cancel a huss) if you think they're trying to push your fb early, even if they go ashi you may get a nice catch if they think you're aging but you pop stuff from your fb. Age if you think you won't lose your fb and / or the tp line.

Straight ff can work but atm I think it's just inferior. Except maybe on florida because you can age super fast without 700g.

[Scroogie]

Correct me if im wrong, the idea behind musk semi is an early falc+vetmusk push. However, you can always push with 2 falcs first and just have some cuirs, pike+skirm+bow with you. That could only get wrecked if japan is massing in age2. However, with the nat scout you should always be ablte to verify if hes aging or not, so you only push with 2 falcs when hes aging.

[Kaiserklein]

Correct me if im wrong, the idea behind musk semi is an early falc+vetmusk push. However, you can always push with 2 falcs first and just have some cuirs, pike+skirm+bow with you. That could only get wrecked if japan is massing in age2. However, with the nat scout you should always be ablte to verify if hes aging or not, so you only push with 2 falcs when hes aging.

Yeah it's partly about the fortress push, but obviously you have to play the age 2 as well. And with musks the age 2 just sucks.

Pushing with falcs first without vet musks is kinda suicide. They could always do stuff like ship 5 nagis and train 5, or stay age 2 indeed (you shouldn't really be able to keep your nat scout alive forever vs 2 monks with divine strikes, so you can't always know) and z move you.
At the end of the day, I'd rather play it safe and open skirm goon in that situation. You can poke vils with skirms / kite his yumis. Keep him stuck in his base with cuir threat, and get stagecoach if you can

[Scroogie]

@Kaiserklein can you elaborate on the crates and chopping you would do? E.g. how much extra wood to chop if you go 4cdb first but want 15 bow/pike, and would you send crates in early fortress or just 8skirm for fast range-pressure?

[Kaiserklein]

Idk it really depends, sometimes you chop a ton for double rax bow/pike, sometimes not too much because you go single rax and get 700w, sometimes you have to stay colo and send more crates, etc. If you're not sure just chop 125 I guess and then either retask cdbs to wood or buy a couple hundreds.
Also depends if you think you'll send 600w at some point btw, which is a rather common follow up for a longer semi with stagecoach and/or adding a stable and/or adding more bows, etc

I don't think I ever send 1000 crates in early fortress, rather pressure first.