Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by benj89 »

Kaiserklein wrote:Which he will have... If he doesn't mass coss you can just rek him so easily with your skirms. So you're gonna have to make goons, or else match his cav mass, but it's really hard in early fortress when you just spent 2.2k res into aging up. Also at this point of the game russia mainly has musk cav (not many strel) so skirm goon is the logical answer to give. When he mixes more strels later to counter your goon skirm, then you need more cav

For ger it's a bit different, obviously they can still go cav skirms because of the amount of uhlans they get. But since I was talking about goons, and I'm sure you noticed ger doesn't have goons, I wasn't talking about ger

exactly
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Hazza54321 »

well obviously you adapt, if he has mostly coss strel you ship 3cuir, if musk huss then skirm or goons depending on the units and cdb you can use to protect skirms
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hazza54321 wrote:well obviously you adapt, if he has mostly coss strel you ship 3cuir, if musk huss then skirm or goons depending on the units and cdb you can use to protect skirms


Yeah but coss strel is so weak vs a civ that wants to cav semi, your opponent can just decide not to age up if he doesn't scout musks and just win with full cav. And even if he ages up, you can't siege with strels coss, and you can't commit because of your lack of anti cav. Or then you need to go really heavy on coss... Which means goons would still be useful right
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Hazza54321 »

sorry im getting bored of this conversation, there is a 3 unit rock paper scissors counter system so no matter what we say its valid so this convo is not worth my time lol
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah you do have cos strel > musk strel > musk cos > cos strel, but it doesn't mean that you also rock paper scissors against the semi ff civ. Musk cos is just safe, it loses to skirm goon but you're not at all likely to get caught and lose all your army. Musk strel (or pike strel) is also more or less safe because you have anti cav so you won't get too much caught, but it obviously gets raped by skirms, which is the unit your opponent will try to get asap. So this composition isn't really viable here. And cos strel is good against skirm goon indeed, but as I said it's not safe at all and you will lose to a full cav or just to enough cav in fort from your opponent, so it's imo the worst thing to do (unless you go really heavy on cos) because it's the best way to get caught and lose all your army

But well if you want to stop discussing it it's np, I wrote all I wanted to anyway
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by momuuu »

You can also go for the triple unit army lol. Thats one of russias strengths, why not use it.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Because as I said if you don't get pure musk cav at 8 min, you will either lack cav or anti cav. You need a lot of musks in case the guy pops cuirs or any cav mass, and you also need a lot of cos to catch skirms. If you add strels then you might either lose all your army to a cav mass or get kited to death by skirms
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by cedarfarms »

The triple unit army with russia is suspect tho because of the muskets not doing their job and beating cav, which is exactly why i think russian muskets are worse. Muskets are supposed to beat cav, russian muskets do not as effectively, making them a weaker musket imo.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by gibson »

cedarfarms wrote:The triple unit army with russia is suspect tho because of the muskets not doing their job and beating cav, which is exactly why i think russian muskets are worse. Muskets are supposed to beat cav, russian muskets do not as effectively, making them a weaker musket imo.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Garja »

russian muskets do beat cav just fine
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by r4go »

Garja wrote:russian muskets do beat cav just fine

check our's start whit brits vs russia
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by stanleywinston »

Garja is right lol
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by r4go »

stanleywinston wrote:Garja is right lol

look Oukr's games, brits vs russia dude
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by KINGofOsmane »

buff ashi pls
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by tilanus »

lol, this thread. Why are you making these weird experiments? Just look into the game files. Here's the code for Russians that proves Halberdiers, Musks and Strelets (in game files they have different base stats) were intentionally nerfed:

Code: Select all

         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Gold' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Food' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Gold' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Strelet</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Food' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Gold' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='TrainPoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='TrainPoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Strelet</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>       
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Strelet</Target></Effect>


Next time, ask a modder. :P
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by iNcog »

Well their cost is 75% of the normal unit and their stats are worth 80%.

So a 5% cost-efficiency bargain?!
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by zoom »

tilanus wrote:lol, this thread. Why are you making these weird experiments? Just look into the game files. Here's the code for Russians that proves Halberdiers, Musks and Strelets (in game files they have different base stats) were intentionally nerfed:

Code: Select all

         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Gold' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Food' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Gold' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Strelet</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Food' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='Cost' resource ='Gold' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='TrainPoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.75' subtype ='TrainPoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Strelet</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>       
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Halberdier</Target></Effect>
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Strelet</Target></Effect>


Next time, ask a modder. :P

How does that prove they were nerfed? It seems to just describe their current cost and stats as multipliers of regular Musketeers.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by medinos »

I wonder what kind of a buff Russia is going to get in the new EP..
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by tilanus »

zoom, you need to scroll down to see the whole code. Here the proof:

Code: Select all

         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>       
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>

-20% Damage and Hitpoints in exchange for reduced train time and costs. That's the Russian deal.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

tilanus wrote:zoom, you need to scroll down to see the whole code. Here the proof:

Code: Select all

         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Hitpoints' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>       
         <Effect type ='Data' amount ='0.80' subtype ='Damage' allactions ='1' relativity ='BasePercent'>
            <Target type ='ProtoUnit'>Musketeer</Target></Effect>

-20% Damage and Hitpoints in exchange for reduced train time and costs. That's the Russian deal.

Yes but it's very hard to figure out whether having -25% cost and also reduced training time while having -20% hp and attack is a good deal or not, because there are multiple other factors that are too situational and complicated to be calculated : mainly drop-off, overkill and pathing issues.

The only way to figure this out is to try it in game. To me russian musks seem really fine against ranged units, because they get overkilled harder and beat other musks. Against cav I think they are fine, but they do have a worse pathing when put in melee mode than other musks.

My point of view is russian musks are good, but russia just don't have the early eco to mass them enough, and then can't really deal with fortress units such as goons and skirms. They can't really rush because not enough early mass, they can't really boom because they get crushed by tech advantaged (unlike their fellow brits, who have lbs against skirms, and upgraded musks/huss). So their only resort against semi ff civs is a timing push, but it's not enough to beat the tech advantage.
I don't think we will ever get a clear answer to this anyway
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:
The only way to figure this out is to try it in game. To me russian musks seem really fine against ranged units, because they get overkilled harder and beat other musks. Against cav I think they are fine, but they do have a worse pathing when put in melee mode than other musks.

You shouldn't meele all musks by just the ones attacked by cav. With good micro Russian muskets do about the same of others vs cav if not better.
As of all Russian units they struggle a bit in close spaces because of pathing but that might be an advantage when defending.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
The only way to figure this out is to try it in game. To me russian musks seem really fine against ranged units, because they get overkilled harder and beat other musks. Against cav I think they are fine, but they do have a worse pathing when put in melee mode than other musks.

You shouldn't meele all musks by just the ones attacked by cav. With good micro Russian muskets do about the same of others vs cav if not better.
As of all Russian units they struggle a bit in close spaces because of pathing but that might be an advantage when defending.

Yeah obviously even with normal musks you shouldn't melee all musks. A good player won't let his cav attack meleed musks anyway, so I don't think pathing is really an issue for russian musks vs cav. But it's arguable
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by adderbrain5 »

gibson wrote:Also because they're batched. Many civs can drop two barracks and get out 10/10 musk or close to it pretty soon after aging. This is because they can que up a batch when they have 150 food and 50 gold and just finish it off later. Russia can't do that. They need like 560 and 180 approximately to que up a two batches. Even though they're cheaper, other civs can actually get out more musks earlier than Russia can (early mid colonial, later on it becomes largely irrelevant ofc). And once you get to fortress they just don't do jack shit. Russian fortress musks are colonial musks with no cards to send or anything to boost their stats and in practice they just get slaughtered by fortress age units.

If you weren't Gibson I would give this a +1
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by forgrin »

The musk batching is really Russ's main issue I think, that and just shitty early eco overall. Something that might work woudl be starting stable, add blockhouse with 700w. Something like 700w 5 coss 13 strel could do well, but I'd need to test it. Would make things a bit smoother early plus you 5 coss at 6 mins > 5 musk at 6 mins.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

forgrin wrote:The musk batching is really Russ's main issue I think, that and just shitty early eco overall. Something that might work woudl be starting stable, add blockhouse with 700w. Something like 700w 5 coss 13 strel could do well, but I'd need to test it. Would make things a bit smoother early plus you 5 coss at 6 mins > 5 musk at 6 mins.

If you have only 5 musks at 6 min with russia, I think you do something wrong tho
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