Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by lordraphael »

Garja wrote:
Garja wrote:
Their effectiveness vs cav is relative. As I pointed out there are situations where having a big mass of mediocre musks is better than having few good ones.
Sometimes it is just a[b] matter of critical mass after which having cheaper but weaker units is actually more effective.[/b]

It seems to me that your consideration are based on personal preference rather than objective facts. For example I prefer strelets and maces above normal skirms. Skirms have range so they allow you to make a play but strelets and maces are objectively better units when it comes to stats.

Cossack are indeed great but being "useful in pretty much every situation of the game" does seem to me a personal opinion.
In general strelets and cossack are great units because they have good stats compared to other average units (hussar and xbows) and they have several ups in colonial already (don't forget AA). As for musks they just complete the combo.


lordraphael wrote:Id go for a convincing no every day . Just imagine brits with ashis or sepoys. In general its just the rule stronger units >worse units despite the former costing more obviously.

Again this is more a personal opinion imo.



i wouldnt say that they become better vs cav than normal musks ever but their weakness is certainly mitigated the bigger the mass gets. However here we already have the crucial point why you have to take into consideration the meta game, and other facts: Having a sufficent mass of musks to fend off cav with relative ease is not easily reached and if it is your opponent will most likely be in the fortress age already.

You can argue about that but unless your opponent has a mass pike or dopple combo id always like some cossacks in my comp.
Wont argue with you about the huss vs cossack simile but you should compare stre to skirm units and not to xbows because when does your opponent makes xbows ? I think out of the last 100 games ive played vs russia i have trained xbows in like 5 games at max ( not ccunting 8 bow ship ) so how is this simile relevant. Again you compare stats without taking the meta into consideration which is crucial when assesing russias strength.
When does AA ever come into play. I recently scratched it from my russia decks because i never use it.
In general I have the feeling that you tend to look at russia with long drawn out colonial fights in mind which is barely the case. I completly agree with you that in drawn out colonial games russia is a tier 1 civ most of the time, but those situations never occur is the problem.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by lordraphael »

lordraphael wrote:While you guys may be right with your tests the conclusions you draw from it are utter bullshit
sompuu is right you cant compare how well russian musks do vs normal musks in an editor and conclude from that which musks are better.
Also the argument that cheaper musks outweight the fact that they are much worse than normal musks is bullshit. Whenever I play russia Id rather have more expensive musks which are better than those musks they currently have. Not because russian musks do badly in inf vs inf fights. They dont as proven by our editor pros kaiserklein and garja but because of their inherent weakness vs handcavalry.
Ovi 12 already gave a pretty good explanation why they suck vs cav so I wont go into detail but I will add that this problem which is somewhat latent in the colonial age becomes a blatant issue in the third age particularly vs cuirassiers where french can often go for a goon cuir combo vs pure musk and win the game with it. This is another reason why russia is so much weaker in the current semi-ff meta. Oh and also dont get me started on the batch mechanics which is def another weakness of russia ( tho it was supposed to be a strength of russia it kinda backfires in most situations.)

Kaiserklein wrote:All we concluded from editor mode is russ musks beat normal musks. That's definitely true so I can't see why you say we can't compare musks using editor mode.
Then yeah against cav it's different as ovi said, but I think with proper micro it's ok because musks don't really have pathing problems when put in melee mode.

It is is absolutly irrelevant whether russian musks win in a musk vs musk fight because situations like this are artifical and rarely occur in a real fight and are therefore irrelevant when russian musks strenght. However you made it look as if that is the important factor that matters and russian musks are superior to normal musks overall which is wrong. Its like saying I m the best at micro because im the best in the time to micro scenario which would be just a wrong statement.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by deleted_user0 »

lordraphael, you should just give up.

garja+kaiserclown brain capacity even combined would be too small to understand this.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

lordraphael wrote:
lordraphael wrote:While you guys may be right with your tests the conclusions you draw from it are utter bullshit
sompuu is right you cant compare how well russian musks do vs normal musks in an editor and conclude from that which musks are better.
Also the argument that cheaper musks outweight the fact that they are much worse than normal musks is bullshit. Whenever I play russia Id rather have more expensive musks which are better than those musks they currently have. Not because russian musks do badly in inf vs inf fights. They dont as proven by our editor pros kaiserklein and garja but because of their inherent weakness vs handcavalry.
Ovi 12 already gave a pretty good explanation why they suck vs cav so I wont go into detail but I will add that this problem which is somewhat latent in the colonial age becomes a blatant issue in the third age particularly vs cuirassiers where french can often go for a goon cuir combo vs pure musk and win the game with it. This is another reason why russia is so much weaker in the current semi-ff meta. Oh and also dont get me started on the batch mechanics which is def another weakness of russia ( tho it was supposed to be a strength of russia it kinda backfires in most situations.)

Kaiserklein wrote:All we concluded from editor mode is russ musks beat normal musks. That's definitely true so I can't see why you say we can't compare musks using editor mode.
Then yeah against cav it's different as ovi said, but I think with proper micro it's ok because musks don't really have pathing problems when put in melee mode.

It is is absolutly irrelevant whether russian musks win in a musk vs musk fight because situations like this are artifical and rarely occur in a real fight and are therefore irrelevant when russian musks strenght. However you made it look as if that is the important factor that matters and russian musks are superior to normal musks overall which is wrong. Its like saying I m the best at micro because im the best in the time to micro scenario which would be just a wrong statement.


It isn't absolutely irrelevant at all, just like being good at ttm isn't absolutely irrelevant. It just means that in game it is a perk to have russian musks against normal musks, just like it means you will be better at microing hard small armies thanks to ttm. Then you have to consider other stuff, like russ musks vs cav or RI, or to complete the comparison with ttm, the fact that you also need to macro and handle reinforcements, position your units using the map, etc. So it's only partially relevant, but it still shows things. I'm pretty sure we could make further tests to compare musks and russian musks, with or without micro, against cav for example
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Hazza54321 »

somppukunkku wrote:lordraphael, you should just give up.

garja+kaiserclown brain capacity even combined would be too small to understand this.

lol
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

somppukunkku wrote:lordraphael, you should just give up.

garja+kaiserclown brain capacity even combined would be too small to understand this.


At least we can argue without flaming everyone and their moms, and we try to use facts to argue, not stuff like "CM one shots russian musks so they suck"
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:lordraphael, you should just give up.

garja+kaiserclown brain capacity even combined would be too small to understand this.


At least we can argue without flaming everyone and their moms, and we try to use facts to argue, not stuff like "CM one shots russian musks so they suck"

1 shotting musk is a big factor though
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:lordraphael, you should just give up.

garja+kaiserclown brain capacity even combined would be too small to understand this.


At least we can argue without flaming everyone and their moms, and we try to use facts to argue, not stuff like "CM one shots russian musks so they suck"

1 shotting musk is a big factor though


But who realistically sends CM, except ports ? It can rarely happen with other civs but do they want that ? And the rest of the time, you have your tc 2-shotting russian musks as well as normal musks, which is overkill. You also have 6 mm or 8 bows one-shotting both normal and russ musks... And most of time you won't split 5 mm on one russ musk and the last one on another russ musk lol. That's small overkill but still overkill, and it happens much more often than CM honestly
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by deleted_user0 »

TC was only an example, dumbass. This can happen in many cases.
Maybe you'll understand when graduate from primary school.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Hazza54321 »

well ports and japs send cm, and those are supposed to be "good" match ups for russia
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

somppukunkku wrote:TC was only an example, dumbass. This can happen in many cases.
Maybe you'll understand when graduate from primary school.


Oh really, in many cases ? I'd be glad to hear those.
Maybe after all you just don't know what overkill means... It's hard to find any other rational explanation. I thought it was obvious to everyone here that the lower the hp of your units, the more it gets overkilled. But it looks like it's not obvious for you, maybe because you don't have the rudiments of micro or logic required to understand it.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:The batch training is a con. But gibson, the notion that russia would always lose if people had perfect macro is nonsense. People already basically have perfect macro and russia can manage itself decently. Not the greatest civ, and not the absolute worst (they might be the worst, but not by much imo).
Are you kidding me? No player has perfect macro and 99.99% of players aren't even anywhere close to having perfect macro. Perfect macro would mean that not only did your villagers have the least walking time and most gathering time possible, but also that every time you qued up a unit, your resources would read 0 0 0. Maybe you would have a small amount of wood due to saving for a house, but that's it. Floating resources above the cost of the units that you're training means you have imperfect macro, assuming you are under 200 population. Due to the fact that it's units are cheaper, Russia is much more forgiving of macro errors and they are much easier to correct than most other civs. An extreme example, but if you're playing french and making cuirs and realize that you're terribly mis macroed and have 1500 food and only 100 gold. It's going to be extremely hard to correct this mismacro especially if you're halfway through a batch being trained. However, if you're a russian player making muskets, it only costs 93 or so gold to que up 5 units and so moving a few vils to gold quickly corrects you're mismacro. Also, people often find themselves mismacro'ed at the end of a batch and so are only able to get out 3 units. Russia never has this issue with infantry. Russias eco is just so god awful early( at 5 minutes they only have 16 or so vils vs a civ like brit or french that has 20+ which is 20% more eco) that a player with perfect macro would be able to get out so many more units than the russian player that they would basically just lose early every game. You'll notice that the higher rank players get, aka as macro improves, the more unviable russia becomes. At like 2nd lt level, many players consider Russia to be op. At the captain level, many people still play them, even in tournaments. At lt colonal, very few people play them. And you never see top tier players playing them in a competitive setting.

Haha OP logic gibson. Its not necessarily possible to go to 0/0/0 after each batch because you might just gather more resources than needed. Just go about it in your head theoretically, how many vills youd need to have one what resource and in how many military buidlings you have to hit 0/0/0 in a perfect world: spoiler, its not possible. If you finish the batch but have 70/22 left and 4 musks in queue, you wont get to 0/0/0 anyways. Good players actually almost always hit 0/0 by good approximation (sometimes just a little bit too much of one resource, but thats because resources inevitably run out), and if they float a bit it is because its not yet worth it to add amother military building, but rather save up a small buffer to compensate for villagers moving to a new hunt and mine.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:TC was only an example, dumbass. This can happen in many cases.
Maybe you'll understand when graduate from primary school.


Oh really, in many cases ? I'd be glad to hear those.
Maybe after all you just don't know what overkill means... It's hard to find any other rational explanation. I thought it was obvious to everyone here that the lower the hp of your units, the more it gets overkilled. But it looks like it's not obvious for you, maybe because you don't have the rudiments of micro or logic required to understand it.

Hey, dont go down to his level of insulting people when you disagree with them. Its not worth it.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by zoom »

NO FLAME BOIS, PLEASE!!
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by gibson »

Jerom wrote:
gibson wrote:
Jerom wrote:The batch training is a con. But gibson, the notion that russia would always lose if people had perfect macro is nonsense. People already basically have perfect macro and russia can manage itself decently. Not the greatest civ, and not the absolute worst (they might be the worst, but not by much imo).
Are you kidding me? No player has perfect macro and 99.99% of players aren't even anywhere close to having perfect macro. Perfect macro would mean that not only did your villagers have the least walking time and most gathering time possible, but also that every time you qued up a unit, your resources would read 0 0 0. Maybe you would have a small amount of wood due to saving for a house, but that's it. Floating resources above the cost of the units that you're training means you have imperfect macro, assuming you are under 200 population. Due to the fact that it's units are cheaper, Russia is much more forgiving of macro errors and they are much easier to correct than most other civs. An extreme example, but if you're playing french and making cuirs and realize that you're terribly mis macroed and have 1500 food and only 100 gold. It's going to be extremely hard to correct this mismacro especially if you're halfway through a batch being trained. However, if you're a russian player making muskets, it only costs 93 or so gold to que up 5 units and so moving a few vils to gold quickly corrects you're mismacro. Also, people often find themselves mismacro'ed at the end of a batch and so are only able to get out 3 units. Russia never has this issue with infantry. Russias eco is just so god awful early( at 5 minutes they only have 16 or so vils vs a civ like brit or french that has 20+ which is 20% more eco) that a player with perfect macro would be able to get out so many more units than the russian player that they would basically just lose early every game. You'll notice that the higher rank players get, aka as macro improves, the more unviable russia becomes. At like 2nd lt level, many players consider Russia to be op. At the captain level, many people still play them, even in tournaments. At lt colonal, very few people play them. And you never see top tier players playing them in a competitive setting.

Haha OP logic gibson. Its not necessarily possible to go to 0/0/0 after each batch because you might just gather more resources than needed. Just go about it in your head theoretically, how many vills youd need to have one what resource and in how many military buidlings you have to hit 0/0/0 in a perfect world: spoiler, its not possible. If you finish the batch but have 70/22 left and 4 musks in queue, you wont get to 0/0/0 anyways. Good players actually almost always hit 0/0 by good approximation (sometimes just a little bit too much of one resource, but thats because resources inevitably run out), and if they float a bit it is because its not yet worth it to add amother military building, but rather save up a small buffer to compensate for villagers moving to a new hunt and mine.

And you hit it, perfect macro is not possible. In fact, it's not even close to possible.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by iNcog »

Why do the Russian threads always get out of hand. o_o
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by momuuu »

Honestly, because imo a few here on the forums are suffering from a severe form of confirmation bias that russia is weak and then resort to flaming people that attempt to break their bias.

But hey, maybe thats my bias speaking.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by lordraphael »

iNcog wrote:Why do the Russian threads always get out of hand. o_o

i would have an answer but i wont write it down lol.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Hazza54321 »

iNcog wrote:Why do the Russian threads always get out of hand. o_o

very controversial civ, arguably the worst civ on ep right now
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by lordraphael »

Jerom wrote:Honestly, because imo a few here on the forums are suffering from a severe form of confirmation bias that russia is weak and then resort to flaming people that attempt to break their bias.

But hey, maybe thats my bias speaking.

its not a bias to say russia is weak. Its a fact iam still waiting to see garja proving that russia is tier 1. I also understand sompuus rage concerning kaiserklein. All he is doing is saying everything is lame and that germany is not strong . Also russian units are very strong ===> see my quote lol

Note : I do think that somppus warning was justified but yea arguing with kaiser AND garja can make you pretty mad
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:TC was only an example, dumbass. This can happen in many cases.
Maybe you'll understand when graduate from primary school.


Oh really, in many cases ? I'd be glad to hear those.
Maybe after all you just don't know what overkill means... It's hard to find any other rational explanation. I thought it was obvious to everyone here that the lower the hp of your units, the more it gets overkilled. But it looks like it's not obvious for you, maybe because you don't have the rudiments of micro or logic required to understand it.

Hey, dont go down to his level of insulting people when you disagree with them. Its not worth it.


I wasn't really insulting him tho... Merely making fun of him. But yea I see what you mean
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by momuuu »

lordraphael wrote:
Jerom wrote:Honestly, because imo a few here on the forums are suffering from a severe form of confirmation bias that russia is weak and then resort to flaming people that attempt to break their bias.

But hey, maybe thats my bias speaking.

its not a bias to say russia is weak. Its a fact iam still waiting to see garja proving that russia is tier 1. I also understand sompuus rage concerning kaiserklein. All he is doing is saying everything is lame and that germany is not strong . Also russian units are very strong ===> see my quote lol

Note : I do think that somppus ban was justified but yea arguing with kaiser AND garja can make you pretty mad

Its not bias to say russia is one of the weaker civs but imo some forum members have taken that opinion to the extreme lol. They make it sound like russia is weaker than RE ports on huntless maps facing iro lol and when anyone relativates some people get angry.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by sompu »

Ye, it's kinda frustrating to explain something to people who don't seem to understand mathematical facts.
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Mimsy for President »

I don't like that internal conflict, especially the one between mods. Mimsy is sad :(
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Re: Why do people think russian musks are worse ?

Post by Kaiserklein »

lordraphael wrote:
Jerom wrote:Honestly, because imo a few here on the forums are suffering from a severe form of confirmation bias that russia is weak and then resort to flaming people that attempt to break their bias.

But hey, maybe thats my bias speaking.

its not a bias to say russia is weak. Its a fact iam still waiting to see garja proving that russia is tier 1. I also understand sompuus rage concerning kaiserklein. All he is doing is saying everything is lame and that germany is not strong . Also russian units are very strong ===> see my quote lol

Note : I do think that somppus ban was justified but yea arguing with kaiser AND garja can make you pretty mad


I never said that ger isn't strong, you're just mad at me because I don't suck your dick like all others do. You're never polite and always arrogant, while what you say isn't even argued properly. Look at this : "All he is doing is saying everything is lame and that germany is not strong". I said russia is lame on no food maps, which is common sense really. I also said people are overrating germany by saying stuff like "you attack move uhlan skirms and win every match up" or "you just 9 uhlans semi ff and win every match up" which is obviously false. And from this, you deduce that I think everything is lame, except ger who suck. Wtf ? I know ger is a very strong civ and russ is a weak civ, but I'm just putting things into perspective... Something a lot of people don't seem to be able to do

Btw about your signature : strelets are a very cost effective unit, and from this thread I conclude that russian musks are better than average. Cossacks are also known as a good cav, so wtf is wrong with what I said ? Russian units are indeed better than average, but they can't mass them when they need to, which is why they suck
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