Shipping units vs shipping crates

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No Flag Jaeger
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Jaeger »

Everyone knows that crates are generally worth more than unit shipments, but I've always wondered exactly how much I miss by sending units instead of resources (You might be surprised!!!) . I've done the calculations for some common units and listed them here (calculations assume you have steel traps, gangsaw, and placer mines):

This is how many units each resoruce shipment is worth

1000g=
10.5 skirms
6.5 huss
4.2 curassiers/war wagons (+3 free uhlans)
6.9 dragoons
7.7 uhlans (+3 free uhlans)
10.7 ryuters

1000f=
6.4 skirms
4 huss
2.5 cuirassiers/war wagons (+3 free uhlans)
4.2 dragoons
4.7 uhlans (+3 free uhlan)
6.6 ryuters

700g=
9.9 musk
4.6 huss
5.4 uhlans (+2 free uhlans)
7.4 skirms

600g=
8.5 musk
3.9 huss
4.6 uhlans (+2 free uhlans)
6.3 skirms

700f=
6 musk
2.8 huss

700w=
11.6 xbow/pike

600w=
10 bow/pike

As I said above, this are all assuming steel traps+placer mines+gangsaw, so with civs like Dutch (where you don't necesarily get all these market upgrades) these crates might be worth a little more in units. Also, keep in mind that if you don't plan sending the crates well, you might have significant walking time with villagers from gold to food if you send 1000g for example.
Also, these crates are worth slightly less because I didn't take into account the time the villagers take to gather the crates up.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by yurashic »

Crates are good if you have many production facilities, like 2 rax + stable, otherwise they take too long to pay off.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Mimsy for President »

I don't understand what all these equalities mean. Could you show us the calculation method ? Just for 700f = 6 musks for example.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by edeholland »

The time it takes to gather 700f with steel traps is the same time as 75*6 food and 25*6 gold with placer mines. Right?
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Goodspeed »

shaolinstar wrote:I don''t understand what all these equalities mean. Could you show us the calculation method ? Just for 700f = 6 musks for example.
Turn both of them into villager seconds (VS). 700 food takes 700/1.1=636 seconds for a villager to gather which is 636 VS. The 1.1 is the speed vills gather food at, starts at 0.84 then *1.1 for hunting dogs and *1.2 for steel traps.
A musk costs 75f25g which if you assume they have placer mines too takes 75/1.1+25/0.66=106 VS to gather the resources for.
636/106=6 so the 700f shipment equals about 6 musks. Of course it''s a bit worse than shipping 6 musks because they don''t arrive instantly and you still need raxes to make them.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by edeholland »

In general you should just ship units when you need them immediately or when you don't have the production facilities. When you have the production facilities crates are better most of the time. Is this a bit true? :p
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Mimsy for President »

@calmyourtits thanks, now it's perfectly clear.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

You forgot the exp from training.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by aoefan4life »

I've always found my eco to really suck when I ship units.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Jaeger »

diarouga wrote:You forgot the exp from training.
Yeah I forgot that''s pretty big. And I also think people underuse crates like 1000g, if you are for example french with 2 rax 1 stable you can easily sink that into a batch of 10 skirm and cuirs, so it doesn''t take that long for crates to pay off.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by deleted_user0 »

Most of the time your eco is good enough to support constant full batches from 2-3 facilities so the units bolster your army while 1000c would just create a bank. In such cases i would prefer to send unit upgrades. For civs like ports 1000c or even food is pretty nice but They often cant get away with it. As iro i always send the 1200 crate one, but their unit shipments have such good value that often its not needed too soon.
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Post by Jaeger »

umeu wrote:Most of the time your eco is good enough to support constant full batches from 2-3 facilities so the units bolster your army while 1000c would just create a bank. In such cases i would prefer to send unit upgrades. For civs like ports 1000c or even food is pretty nice but They often cant get away with it. As iro i always send the 1200 crate one, but their unit shipments have such good value that often its not needed too soon.
Hm I really like to send 1000g with port vs enemy that follows you to fortress, you can either use it to keep up in mass or ship mamelukes if you need to. And port definately can''t support constant 5 goon 5 cassa witouth it if you semi ff :P. Also, Besides port, I think it can be good with french since you can probably make constant 5 cuirs and constant 5 or 10 skirms, and idk if you can without it.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by deleted_user0 »

Port should semi almost always, but even whem you semi crates are nice because they have a hard time keeping up vill and unit production at the same time otherwise

With fre i used to do a tp semi ff, it could support 2 rax 10 skir batches and 1 stable goon production easily. Cuir u cant support right away, but after a bit you can. 1000w early is nice to slip in, specially in teamgames but in 1v1 ur often under pressure or trying to apply it
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Post by cowhax »

shipping units is good because you can go for the bigger map treasures more comfortably with certain civs. So your unit shipment can become a unit shipment +200ish resources. I think civs like Ports could use 700 food shipment to make vills + military. And as absurd as it is, I think they could benefit from livestock shipments too. Not for age up, but 7 sheep, 15 sheep, or 7 cows are a reasonable supply of food for port when you can't go fishing.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Einfein »

I'll preface my response by admitting I'm a noob, but I have to say that in my experience age 2 unit shipments are usually better. Besides 700w, units help you mass early for offense/map control. They're also great if you're trying to semi and get hit by a good timing push. As has been stated resource crates are awesome, but if you're not alive long enough to use them...

Also, read my signature. I found it amusing, but he does make a good point.
"He's just got more stuff, and sometimes just having more stuff, despite the fact you have better positioning or better micro just doesn't matter because sometimes when you just got more stuff you just win the game." - ZutaZuta
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Mimsy for President »

xD zuta the champ
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by edeholland »

cowhax wrote:shipping units is good because you can go for the bigger map treasures more comfortably with certain civs. So your unit shipment can become a unit shipment +200ish resources. I think civs like Ports could use 700 food shipment to make vills + military. And as absurd as it is, I think they could benefit from livestock shipments too. Not for age up, but 7 sheep, 15 sheep, or 7 cows are a reasonable supply of food for port when you can''t go fishing.
Shipping resources to make military can give you the same treasures, and gives even more resources, so that first argument is incorrect imo. Livestock shipments are also bad, just because a few cows that still need to fatten and to be gathered don''t give a whole lot of resources. Ports are fucked anyways if they don''t have hunt or fish, livestock won''t solve that.
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by _H2O »

It takes 28 vs to pick up the crates too
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by Garja »

It also takes tons of VS to move 20 vills to food just to balance the 1000g.
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Post by Goodspeed »

Unless you macro it in such a way that you don't have to move vills. Ie starting a batch of 1 cuir and 1 skirm in early fortress, collecting 1000g and filling up to 5-5.
Either way the XP makes up for that.

Anyway as a general rule, ask yourself when you need your army the most (for timings or to hold off pressure):
- In the next minute orso: send units
- Within the next 5 minutes: send crates
- 5+ minutes from now: send eco (vills or 300e or w/e)
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Post by bart331 »

Interesting concept

This can be very beneficial for newer players to understand what to send when. Together with wood shipment to setup infrastructure and upgrades if u have large enough military count
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by cowhax »

edeholland wrote:
cowhax wrote:shipping units is good because you can go for the bigger map treasures more comfortably with certain civs. So your unit shipment can become a unit shipment +200ish resources. I think civs like Ports could use 700 food shipment to make vills + military. And as absurd as it is, I think they could benefit from livestock shipments too. Not for age up, but 7 sheep, 15 sheep, or 7 cows are a reasonable supply of food for port when you cant go fishing.
Shipping resources to make military can give you the same treasures, and gives even more resources, so that first argument is incorrect imo. Livestock shipments are also bad, just because a few cows that still need to fatten and to be gathered dont give a whole lot of resources. Ports are fucked anyways if they dont have hunt or fish, livestock wont solve that.


Well they dont have villager shipments also, so livestock can be treated as a villager shipment. Ill never buy the argument that livestock shipments are bad, except for most civs. Honestly, I can agree with that.

Anyway, shipping units is safer too. Even if its 3 hand cav, that gives you something to disrupt the other players eco, plus provides some sort of defense if need be.
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Post by Jaeger »

garja wrote:It also takes tons of VS to move 20 vills to food just to balance the 1000g.
Well for example when you semi ff with french you already have most vills on food cause you gather 300g and then you just wait for 700g
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Shipping units vs shipping crates

Post by _H2O »

It's a combination of GS and the first poster who said if you have production facilities crates are better.

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