Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

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United States of America HeatitUP_
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Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by HeatitUP_ »

,
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

Hey man, 300w are not pretty bad in 1v1 if you want rush (vs spain you can, actually). If you are playing against iro/russian, you may consider the CM card. Personally, on a map like Siberia, Japan is a great civ, because towers help your early game, but in general it's really far to be considered OP from my point of view, at least.
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by HeatitUP_ »

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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by KINGofOsmane »

otto is an hard mu, you have to scout good or you lose
if he jan rushes, you go yumi wall and try to win in age 2 with yumi and ashi , dont push out before you have ashis
if he jan abus you do also yumi wall and you need to send cm to kill the abus fast or they will kill you lol
if he ffs you ff yourself take a tp and try to get cm also into your bo coz you might need it when hes near your tc with 2x your army

iro i think is super hopeless i played vs umeus iros even if i went full lame with water and 4 layers i saw no way wining this so ye try yumi wall and hope he does a huge mistake.

russia is a tricky mu you can just fi with mm card and 3 tcs but that might not work vs an good russ so you actually try to yumi wall with cm card and play it out from there.

vs spain you have 3 options 1) you can rush with 300w 5 5 ashi 300 export with clubs and ashi
2) or you can ff yourself which might be hard if he does an all in ff
3) or you just stay age 2 mass a lot of army and try to flank the cannons from 2 sites and with mm ofc ,you can also send mm card if you need i.t
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by farran34 »

iro i think is super hopeless i played vs umeus iros even if i went full lame with water and 4 layers i saw no way wining this so ye try yumi wall and hope he does a huge mistake.


I would have thought on a good water map japan would have the advantage vs iro, interesting... You think he outplayed you or iro just wins even vs full water lame?
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by KINGofOsmane »

farran34 wrote:
iro i think is super hopeless i played vs umeus iros even if i went full lame with water and 4 layers i saw no way wining this so ye try yumi wall and hope he does a huge mistake.


I would have thought on a good water map japan would have the advantage vs iro, interesting... You think he outplayed you or iro just wins even vs full water lame?

didnt full water since i had only low homecity :(
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by farran34 »

KINGofOsmane wrote:
farran34 wrote:
iro i think is super hopeless i played vs umeus iros even if i went full lame with water and 4 layers i saw no way wining this so ye try yumi wall and hope he does a huge mistake.


I would have thought on a good water map japan would have the advantage vs iro, interesting... You think he outplayed you or iro just wins even vs full water lame?

didnt full water since i had only low homecity :(

ah that could explain some of it ;p
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by fei123456 »

otto: pure yumi and scout. if he age up you age up too
iro: wall wall wall
russia: start stable and send yumi
spain: 300w rush. if you failed to kill him, send cm and kill his cannon with tc fire and minutemen
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Vs rushes you usually want to age faster (put more vills on the wonder), and don't be afraid to send anti rush shipments, like cm vs russia or vs a jan rush, 5ashis vs iro etc.
Vs spain I'd say go double ashi and try to kill his falcs early.
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by HeatitUP_ »

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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

HeatitUP_ wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Vs rushes you usually want to age faster (put more vills on the wonder), and don't be afraid to send anti rush shipments, like cm vs russia or vs a jan rush, 5ashis vs iro etc.
Vs spain I'd say go double ashi and try to kill his falcs early.

So vs spain I can do 600 coin two times to spam ashi?

You can.
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

HeatitUP_ wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes

You can.

How many ashi would you typically have by the time you have to deal with the ff push?

Free rax from Jap or 7 xbow? Which one is better? I'm leaning toward the free rax myself so I just have to make 1. I'll start leaving soon after I age up to ally with Japan.

7 bows :P
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by HeatitUP_ »

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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by yemshi »

At the end of the day - a rax costs 170w/200w; 7 xbows or some clubmen are simply worth more resources.
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by HeatitUP_ »

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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by yemshi »

The time it takes for the wagon to arrive and to build the rax just makes it bad tbh. Just build the 2nd one/both with 600w shipment. I just prefer building my last shrines with the 600w and still have the port consulate boost . That is if you send kami though, with 300w I think it is okay as you don't go port cons anyway and you just lose 1,5 clubs.
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by HeatitUP_ »

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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by yemshi »

Yeah, that's what I've said. You trade 170w vs 100 export which is bad if you sent kami first and good if you sent 300w first.
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by Hazza54321 »

HeatitUP_ wrote:They say Japan is really OP and lame but their early game takes a pretty decent amount of skill because one mistake will cost you the game. I know if you cba to wall then you'll probably lose so that's a must I think. I like to place shrines near my town center so I just don't lose them for free at the beginning of the game in like a wall formation with my buildings. I forgot to add Aztecs and they seem like a really hard counter to Japan also but you don't see them very often.

The start is very important and making a market early is just a bad idea and useless unless vs Spain you can upgrade villager hp to defend vs ff timing because losing a few vills is okay if you defend against the Spanish ff and the market fills up a decent amount of space to protect your eco also.

Japan vs Otto and Iroq seems rough because they can rush you when you're really vulnerable and keep up pressure while getting trading posts and killing shrines around the map so you're down to many shrines with no hunts and a really small walled space.

My Question:
If you're experienced with Japan what is the BO for early pressure that keeps yourself from getting hurt and when do you feel comfortable getting market upgrades? It seems pretty hard to get an army out to protect anything especially if your gold mine is in terrible position because a wall doesn't stop ranged unit :(

I personally find 300 wood pretty bad in 1x1 but alright for 2x2 if Japan isn't on the other team if you rush hard. Kami seems better first unless it's a water map then you can send the 30% cheaper fishing boats and free dock first on heavy fishing maps.

If I said anything incorrectly please correct my ideas. Thanks!

I often build a market with the 600w tbh just because u can trade at the market as sometimes all ur vills are idle early game so u can trade for mm and try to time them at tge same time as a unit shipment
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by Hazza54321 »

Vs spain ive been testing samaraui club ashi nagi to ok success however it needs more testing
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by sirmusket »

Hazza54321 wrote:
HeatitUP_ wrote:They say Japan is really OP and lame but their early game takes a pretty decent amount of skill because one mistake will cost you the game. I know if you cba to wall then you'll probably lose so that's a must I think. I like to place shrines near my town center so I just don't lose them for free at the beginning of the game in like a wall formation with my buildings. I forgot to add Aztecs and they seem like a really hard counter to Japan also but you don't see them very often.

The start is very important and making a market early is just a bad idea and useless unless vs Spain you can upgrade villager hp to defend vs ff timing because losing a few vills is okay if you defend against the Spanish ff and the market fills up a decent amount of space to protect your eco also.

Japan vs Otto and Iroq seems rough because they can rush you when you're really vulnerable and keep up pressure while getting trading posts and killing shrines around the map so you're down to many shrines with no hunts and a really small walled space.

My Question:
If you're experienced with Japan what is the BO for early pressure that keeps yourself from getting hurt and when do you feel comfortable getting market upgrades? It seems pretty hard to get an army out to protect anything especially if your gold mine is in terrible position because a wall doesn't stop ranged unit :(

I personally find 300 wood pretty bad in 1x1 but alright for 2x2 if Japan isn't on the other team if you rush hard. Kami seems better first unless it's a water map then you can send the 30% cheaper fishing boats and free dock first on heavy fishing maps.

If I said anything incorrectly please correct my ideas. Thanks!

I often build a market with the 600w tbh just because u can trade at the market as sometimes all ur vills are idle early game so u can trade for mm and try to time them at tge same time as a unit shipment

If this is x1, cherry orchard and building palcement is crucial with Japan, if you place cherries good and u have 2 , you might not be idled as long , if you can gather from one safely
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by Jaeger »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
HeatitUP_ wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Vs rushes you usually want to age faster (put more vills on the wonder), and don't be afraid to send anti rush shipments, like cm vs russia or vs a jan rush, 5ashis vs iro etc.
Vs spain I'd say go double ashi and try to kill his falcs early.

So vs spain I can do 600 coin two times to spam ashi?

You can.


But what if spain looks at your deck and just sends 1k wood first, and just push 1-2 shipments later with a better army and eco?
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by farran34 »

Hazza54321 wrote:Vs spain ive been testing samaraui club ashi nagi to ok success however it needs more testing

samaraui are good vs piro ff actually ^^
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by yemshi »

Depends on the map. If you he is able to sit in the trees or next to a mine you are vitually fucked.
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Re: Japan vs Otto/Iroq/Russia and even Spain

Post by gibson »

KINGofOsmane wrote:otto is an hard mu, you have to scout good or you lose
if he jan rushes, you go yumi wall and try to win in age 2 with yumi and ashi , dont push out before you have ashis
if he jan abus you do also yumi wall and you need to send cm to kill the abus fast or they will kill you lol
if he ffs you ff yourself take a tp and try to get cm also into your bo coz you might need it when hes near your tc with 2x your army

iro i think is super hopeless i played vs umeus iros even if i went full lame with water and 4 layers i saw no way wining this so ye try yumi wall and hope he does a huge mistake.

russia is a tricky mu you can just fi with mm card and 3 tcs but that might not work vs an good russ so you actually try to yumi wall with cm card and play it out from there.

vs spain you have 3 options 1) you can rush with 300w 5 5 ashi 300 export with clubs and ashi
2) or you can ff yourself which might be hard if he does an all in ff
3) or you just stay age 2 mass a lot of army and try to flank the cannons from 2 sites and with mm ofc ,you can also send mm card if you need i.t
tricky mate

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