So then nerf the civ in a general way that doesn't touch their unique strength which is shipments. Like slowing them down or nerfing their eco, which is why I'm thinking -100f or -1v +200f
Changes to starting crates are the best possible balance changes because they don't affect a civ's playstyle or unique bonus, all they do is they simply make the civ slightly better or worse.
What's with the germans?
What's with the germans?
Why do you think the civ needs a nerf in the first place tho?calmyourtits wrote:So then nerf the civ in a general way that doesn''t touch their unique strength which is shipments. Like slowing them down or nerfing their eco, which is why I''m thinking -100f or -1v +200f
Changes to starting crates are the best possible balance changes because they don''t affect a civ''s playstyle or unique bonus, all they do is they simply make the civ slightly better or worse.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
What's with the germans?
Because they're one of the best civs currently, not counting Iro/Otto.
What's with the germans?
Well they loose to iro otto france japan and beat sioux china port spain aztec dutch russia, and are pretty even to india and brit. So they loose to 4, beat 7, and are even with 2. Seems good but not OP.calmyourtits wrote:Because they''re one of the best civs currently, not counting Iro/Otto.
Also idk about spain and russia, a lot of ppl like garja and umeu think those civs beat germany or are at least even.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
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jsimons1289 - Dragoon
- Posts: 246
- Joined: May 21, 2015
What's with the germans?
They lose to France but beat Sioux? You sure
What's with the germans?
i dont think they lose to french anymore
What's with the germans?
I don't think they win easily at all though. =/
What's with the germans?
Why Germans are op? How a can a civ without anticav be op? They are just France, but without 2 cannons, musk, goons, worse economy and more reliance on gold mines. In return they have stronger age 3 shipments... Idk, this civ is really strong if you raid very well, fight with settler wagons to survive age 2 timings and kill your enemy before you run out of gold.
Also German FI is crazy strong, make age 4 uhlans and ship artillery...
Also German FI is crazy strong, make age 4 uhlans and ship artillery...
What's with the germans?
I don''t think they''re OP but I think if you count the uhlans from shipments as resources they probably outboom french for a while.yurashic wrote:Why Germans are op? How a can a civ without anticav be op? They are just France, but without 2 cannons, musk, goons, worse economy and more reliance on gold mines. In return they have stronger age 3 shipments... Idk, this civ is really strong if you raid very well, fight with settler wagons to survive age 2 timings and kill your enemy before you run out of gold.
Also German FI is crazy strong, make age 4 uhlans and ship artillery...
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
What's with the germans?
I think Mongolia is the best map for Germany. You have 5k gold, distant tps no one will destroy, and your enemy has bad hunt so you can raid hunts in the middle of the map and kill vills.
What's with the germans?
Idk, if you play vs age 2 the lack of food can be really bad for you too.yurashic wrote:I think Mongolia is the best map for Germany. You have 5k gold, distant tps no one will destroy, and your enemy has bad hunt so you can raid hunts in the middle of the map and kill vills.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
What's with the germans?
Ye Germans just have one very good strat. Like the TP for colonial play is totally fine, it just makes for the lack of musks.
But if you consider that the 7 ulhan semi basically works well vs anything (rush, boom, ff) you can tell there is a problem.
But if you consider that the 7 ulhan semi basically works well vs anything (rush, boom, ff) you can tell there is a problem.
What's with the germans?
Since today was an awfully long day I decided to spend even more of my already scarce free time on ESOC. Since Uhlans are unique to the civ and free to nearly each shipment, I decided to make a full analysis and look at their stats and general ideas (compared to a hussar):
190 hp vs 320 hp: 40.63% less hitpoints
30% rr vs 20% rr: If ranged resistence is taken into consideration an uhlan only has 32.14% less hitpoints
37 dmg vs 30 dmg: 23% higher damage output
20 siege each, 2 pop each: same
Let's take the average of both ranged and meele damage input: (40.63% + 32.14%) / 2 = 36.39% less hitpoints on average.
So 36.39% less hp and 23% more dmg = 13.39% weaker than a hussar overall (if ranged and melee damage intake is averaged)
now let's compare the cost in villager seconds = VS(with hunting dogs(10%), steel traps(20%) and placer mines(10%) researched)
Uhlan: 50f / (0.84 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2)) = 45.79 VS
Hussar: 120f / (0.84 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2)) = 109.89 VS
Uhlan: 100c / (0.6 * (1 + 0.1)) = 151.52 VS
Hussar: 80c / (0.6 * (1 + 0.1)) = 121.21 VS
Total: Hussar = 231.1 VS vs Uhlan = 197.31 VS, so an uhlan costs 14.62% less
All in all an uhlan is 14.62% less expensive and is weaker by 13.39%, so it's cost efficient by 1.23% per resource (the more you trade uhlans vs hussar, the more the cost efficiency gives the german player the edge)
Also an uhlan is pop inefficient (per resource) by 14.62% and has a 17.13% higher siege damage per resource.
so when training uhlans you have to calculate with the 14.5% and when you want to know how many free VS you get in a shipment you have to go over the 13.4%.
An example: A colonial shipments gets you 2 free uhlans which are worth about (2 * (1-0.134)) = 1.732 hussars. Those hussars are worth 1.732 * 231.1VS = 400.27VS which translates roughly (with gang saw) into 400.27 * (0.5 * (1 + 0.1)) = 220.15 FREE wood, which is (compared to the 700w shipment) about 31.45% higher value. Compared to shipments with less VS it's an even higher bonus. Let's assume it's about 35% more VS per shipment: Shipment value = shipment * (1-0.1 shipment nerf) * 1.35 = 21.5% higher shipment value (the shipment nerf is already negated) compared to any other civ.
Sidenote: Fortress shipments are ((3/2) * 220.15 wood) / 1000 wood shipment = 33.02% more instead of the 31.45%. Also about the veterancy upgrade (which should generally make no difference, but since it's always rounded down there still might be a difference) compared to a vet huss: hp makes no difference, dmg of uhlan should be 44.4 but it's 44' dmg of hussar should be 36 and is 36 so there the uhlan loses out about 0.9% which together with the less hp makes 0.45% rounding difference, which is negligible.
Now to the impact on the game due to the focus shift from sustain (hp) to damage output (dmg): Yes an uhlan is more cost efficient than a hussar, but only when you take the average of hp difference and dmg difference, which were the 36.4% less hp and the 23% more dmg. What is the impact of this exactly, venox?
Well since damage affects your enemy, the uhlan has a higher influence on the enemy army compared to a hussar. But the missing hitpoints mean that the influence of the enemy army on your uhlans is higher as well. One inattentive moment of the enemy shoting your uhlans is more likely to result in a higher diminished damage output (lost uhlans) compared to lost hussars which tank more. But the higher influence on the enemies army means that a slight army advantage/disadvatage) early on results in a bigger army discrepancy after the trade off' One more uhlan results in a bigger snowball effect. An example:
10 uhlans vs 9 uhlans before =>' 7/8 uhlans vs 0 uhlans after
10 hussars vs 9 hussars before =>' 5/6 hussars vs 0 hussars after
Both initially started with 1/9 % more army, but in the battle with the uhlans, due to the army advantage having a bigger influence, resulted in a more decisive victory. (I might be wrong about this point but it makes the most sense to me, also from experience). The reverse is true as well because the uhlans die faster and their damage output shrinks faster =>' also bigger snowball effect for your enemy.
That's also why in smaller battles slightly more resources in uhlans vs a russian infantry army will snowball hard while with hussars this won't work that well.
Some more notes: Uhlan higher overkill, needs more space per resource (bigger armies =>' less surface area for the uhlans to attack in general and also in comparison to hussar which take the same space as an uhlan)
Generally: Ger nice shipment value (in lategame where shipments take very very long the advantage diminishes), nice snowballing (easily to overwhelm enemy and to get overwhelmed), more skill required to not lose them unnecessarily (less hp, more dmg), cost efficient but predictable by enemy. Bigger shipment value =>' shipment pop onto enemy is more decisive.
That's for my mathematical approach as an explanation of all messages before.
190 hp vs 320 hp: 40.63% less hitpoints
30% rr vs 20% rr: If ranged resistence is taken into consideration an uhlan only has 32.14% less hitpoints
37 dmg vs 30 dmg: 23% higher damage output
20 siege each, 2 pop each: same
Let's take the average of both ranged and meele damage input: (40.63% + 32.14%) / 2 = 36.39% less hitpoints on average.
So 36.39% less hp and 23% more dmg = 13.39% weaker than a hussar overall (if ranged and melee damage intake is averaged)
now let's compare the cost in villager seconds = VS(with hunting dogs(10%), steel traps(20%) and placer mines(10%) researched)
Uhlan: 50f / (0.84 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2)) = 45.79 VS
Hussar: 120f / (0.84 * (1 + 0.1 + 0.2)) = 109.89 VS
Uhlan: 100c / (0.6 * (1 + 0.1)) = 151.52 VS
Hussar: 80c / (0.6 * (1 + 0.1)) = 121.21 VS
Total: Hussar = 231.1 VS vs Uhlan = 197.31 VS, so an uhlan costs 14.62% less
All in all an uhlan is 14.62% less expensive and is weaker by 13.39%, so it's cost efficient by 1.23% per resource (the more you trade uhlans vs hussar, the more the cost efficiency gives the german player the edge)
Also an uhlan is pop inefficient (per resource) by 14.62% and has a 17.13% higher siege damage per resource.
so when training uhlans you have to calculate with the 14.5% and when you want to know how many free VS you get in a shipment you have to go over the 13.4%.
An example: A colonial shipments gets you 2 free uhlans which are worth about (2 * (1-0.134)) = 1.732 hussars. Those hussars are worth 1.732 * 231.1VS = 400.27VS which translates roughly (with gang saw) into 400.27 * (0.5 * (1 + 0.1)) = 220.15 FREE wood, which is (compared to the 700w shipment) about 31.45% higher value. Compared to shipments with less VS it's an even higher bonus. Let's assume it's about 35% more VS per shipment: Shipment value = shipment * (1-0.1 shipment nerf) * 1.35 = 21.5% higher shipment value (the shipment nerf is already negated) compared to any other civ.
Sidenote: Fortress shipments are ((3/2) * 220.15 wood) / 1000 wood shipment = 33.02% more instead of the 31.45%. Also about the veterancy upgrade (which should generally make no difference, but since it's always rounded down there still might be a difference) compared to a vet huss: hp makes no difference, dmg of uhlan should be 44.4 but it's 44' dmg of hussar should be 36 and is 36 so there the uhlan loses out about 0.9% which together with the less hp makes 0.45% rounding difference, which is negligible.
Now to the impact on the game due to the focus shift from sustain (hp) to damage output (dmg): Yes an uhlan is more cost efficient than a hussar, but only when you take the average of hp difference and dmg difference, which were the 36.4% less hp and the 23% more dmg. What is the impact of this exactly, venox?
Well since damage affects your enemy, the uhlan has a higher influence on the enemy army compared to a hussar. But the missing hitpoints mean that the influence of the enemy army on your uhlans is higher as well. One inattentive moment of the enemy shoting your uhlans is more likely to result in a higher diminished damage output (lost uhlans) compared to lost hussars which tank more. But the higher influence on the enemies army means that a slight army advantage/disadvatage) early on results in a bigger army discrepancy after the trade off' One more uhlan results in a bigger snowball effect. An example:
10 uhlans vs 9 uhlans before =>' 7/8 uhlans vs 0 uhlans after
10 hussars vs 9 hussars before =>' 5/6 hussars vs 0 hussars after
Both initially started with 1/9 % more army, but in the battle with the uhlans, due to the army advantage having a bigger influence, resulted in a more decisive victory. (I might be wrong about this point but it makes the most sense to me, also from experience). The reverse is true as well because the uhlans die faster and their damage output shrinks faster =>' also bigger snowball effect for your enemy.
That's also why in smaller battles slightly more resources in uhlans vs a russian infantry army will snowball hard while with hussars this won't work that well.
Some more notes: Uhlan higher overkill, needs more space per resource (bigger armies =>' less surface area for the uhlans to attack in general and also in comparison to hussar which take the same space as an uhlan)
Generally: Ger nice shipment value (in lategame where shipments take very very long the advantage diminishes), nice snowballing (easily to overwhelm enemy and to get overwhelmed), more skill required to not lose them unnecessarily (less hp, more dmg), cost efficient but predictable by enemy. Bigger shipment value =>' shipment pop onto enemy is more decisive.
That's for my mathematical approach as an explanation of all messages before.
Don't let the things you can't change dictate your life.
What's with the germans?
Wow nice math. But uhlan high damage means a lot when you are raiding, here hp is not as valuable.
Also, you considered steel traps and placer mines, but usually as Germany when you make uhlans you get the second gold upgrade, not food. Like this uhlans would turn out much more cost effective.
And how can uhlans be bad if their models look so cool?
Also, you considered steel traps and placer mines, but usually as Germany when you make uhlans you get the second gold upgrade, not food. Like this uhlans would turn out much more cost effective.
And how can uhlans be bad if their models look so cool?
What's with the germans?
I'd rather get a second tp (or even third) for the 200w 200f, which is more costly than steel traps. Yes sure it's still 20%, but since you gather food more quickly the 20% makes a bigger difference there' shipping coin and wood and having steel traps is more efficient than having amalgamation and shipping coin/wood (since you need the same amount of food > more villagers on food). Also sooner or later you want not only uhlans but also WW (not _h2o, but me I like their range) and maybe a second or even third town centre. Sure I'll add amalgamation before that but it's imo not necessary, esp when you could send 700c and gather the 1200f it's still more efficient to get steel traps. Mongolia full tps yolo mercs is another story.
Don't let the things you can't change dictate your life.
What's with the germans?
When you play team games you do 3 sw 700 w and get amalgamation from 700 w so you can produce double stable. In 1v1 yes, it is expensive, but usually I don't get steel traps with Germans unless I do an eco build.
I did the math and found out that 2 uhlans beat 1 ww, cost 300 vs 300... Need to test in the scenario editor.
I did the math and found out that 2 uhlans beat 1 ww, cost 300 vs 300... Need to test in the scenario editor.
What's with the germans?
Thats so position dependant
What's with the germans?
Also villager seconds isn't the same, and in a context of bigger numbers I say ww sure beat uhlans
Don't let the things you can't change dictate your life.
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