China builds

No Flag maxjoo
Crossbow
Posts: 5
Joined: May 28, 2015

China builds

Post by maxjoo »

Hoping anyone could give me some advice on good build for China, bored of using German and French every game and want to try something new.


I obviously know the basics like only sending the first vill card when you have 3 villages or have started building the first, to FF/ Semi whenever possible and setting up defensively but would like any tips on their best units, best cards, age ups etc.


Thanks!
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

China builds

Post by Jaeger »

There are 2 strong timing with china iirc, I think the first one is when you get your first fortress batch from summer palace (that's also when you get 2nd fortress shipment and 400e redcoats i think) and the second one is when you get your second fortress batch from summer palace (you also get your 3rd age 3 shipment and the crow at that time I believe). I could be wrong tho.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

China builds

Post by _H2O »

My guess is China is highly misunderstood by this group. Check it my past streams on twitch.tv/ryanmankle. I play a lot of China. I will edit this post later with more detail. Two big points

First cards HAVE to be villager card, 700 gold, 700 wood. You cannot play colonial if you do anything else you may as well not play China.

Second, you need to improve your villager defense skills. You cannot be lazy during transition.

More details you can pick out of my past streams there's tons of small things to build on this. Also more cards and other obvious stuff
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

China builds

Post by Jaeger »

h2o wrote:My guess is China is highly misunderstood by this group. Check it my past streams on twitch.tv/ryanmankle. I play a lot of China. I will edit this post later with more detail. Two big points

First cards HAVE to be villager card, 700 gold, 700 wood. You cannot play colonial if you do anything else you may as well not play China.

Second, you need to improve your villager defense skills. You cannot be lazy during transition.

More details you can pick out of my past streams there''s tons of small things to build on this. Also more cards and other obvious stuff
What if you get really pressured and need to send 8 chukonu tho? If you have to send it, isn''t it better to send it before 700w? Otherwise if you send it after 700w you won''t be able to use the wood anyway until the bows come.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
No Flag maxjoo
Crossbow
Posts: 5
Joined: May 28, 2015

China builds

Post by maxjoo »

In the few games I played after this I found you really dont need the 8 cho ko un ship, with the summer palace group, first fort ship, hero and minutes that you still have you can more so push the pressure away.

Thoughts about which is better between porcelain tower and the confusion academy for the age 3 up?
No Flag StarFox_
Musketeer
Posts: 61
Joined: May 11, 2015

China builds

Post by StarFox_ »

if you have to send 8 bow you already lost.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

China builds

Post by Jaeger »

starfox wrote:if you have to send 8 bow you already lost.
idk
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

China builds

Post by _H2O »

ovi12 wrote:
starfox wrote:if you have to send 8 bow you already lost.
idk

I do! :D
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

China builds

Post by Goodspeed »

First of all go TP+village instead of 2 villages in early discovery, still send vill card.
Mostly you just have to FF, preferably what H2O mentioned (700g 700w) but against some rushes you'll need a unit shipment.
You could try 700w 8ckn 7cav 700g age, 3 batches of ckn/pike and French cons for 500w as you age up. It feels okay, but most civs have ways to abuse your late (~10min) fortress time.
No Flag maxjoo
Crossbow
Posts: 5
Joined: May 28, 2015

China builds

Post by maxjoo »

Bearing in mind I am only a 2nd/1st lieut borderline atm so I doubt anyone I play will be good enough to know about many good timings
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

China builds

Post by zoom »

Sending 'Fugees shipment with one village is terrible. If you're going to do that you're better of sending 300w or Sumptuary Laws.

Also, there is no way in hell you can hold any serious aggression without shipping units ?? even less so if you're aging with Porcelain Tower (suicide against heavy aggression). Against several civs there is no way you can hold regardless though, unless you're outplaying your opponent by a fair margin.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

China builds

Post by zoom »

h2o wrote:My guess is China is highly misunderstood by this group. Check it my past streams on twitch.tv/ryanmankle. I play a lot of China. I will edit this post later with more detail. Two big points

First cards HAVE to be villager card, 700 gold, 700 wood. You cannot play colonial if you do anything else you may as well not play China.

Second, you need to improve your villager defense skills. You cannot be lazy during transition.

More details you can pick out of my past streams there''s tons of small things to build on this. Also more cards and other obvious stuff
1. Please define "this group".
2. Your understanding doesn''t differ from any other half-decent player''s one, AFAIK.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

China builds

Post by deleted_user0 »

zoom wrote:Sending ''Fugees shipment with one village is terrible. If you''re going to do that you''re better of sending 300w or Sumptuary Laws.

Also, there is no way in hell you can hold any serious aggression without shipping units ?? even less so if you''re aging with Porcelain Tower (suicide against heavy aggression). Against several civs there is no way you can hold regardless though, unless you''re outplaying your opponent by a fair margin.

maybe 1 tp 1 village and save shipment?
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

China builds

Post by Jaeger »

maxjoo wrote:Bearing in mind I am only a 2nd/1st lieut borderline atm so I doubt anyone I play will be good enough to know about many good timings
They don''t have to know about them, but you should :P. If you''re trying to learn a build with any civ, I suggest you try to run trough it like 5 times vs a sandbox computer and try to do everything as neatly as you can. You can continue to mass units etc until like 13 minutes or so so you can get a better feel for the optimal vill distribution and other kinds of things.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1303
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

China builds

Post by yurashic »

China is a mid-tier civ, your colonial is bad so you ff every game. I would say it is around the level of Germany.
1. FF. Build 2 houses, ship 3 vills, age with 17 vills with the summer palace. Build the wonder with 4-5 vills. Ship 700 gold and age with the Confucian academy, build it with 4-5 vills as well. If you are rushed ship army, call mm, make disciples and use your free army. If not rushed, ship 700 wood and distribute vills between all res - you need 2 more houses, a barracks, a consulate and a market. In the consulate choose Britain, in the market get all age 1 upgrades + professional hunters. In fortress make age 3 units and send army. Chinese strongest timing is at the 12 minute mark, when you get your first cannon, first batch of redcoats and 2 best shipments - 5 meteors and intervention. Use your barracks to produce mostly cav, because Chinese age 3 cav is very strong. Use disciples and put your monk into cover mode. If you have no food build a monastery and get mercs.
2. FI. Same, but get a tp from 700 wood, age to 3 with porcellain tower. Ship 1000 gold and age to 4 with Confucian academy. Ship 21 chu ko nu, 21 pikemen then old Han reforms, upgrade them to age 4 and win. Like my friend likes to say: "Old Han pikemen counter falconets".
Hope that helped.
No Flag cowhax
Skirmisher
Posts: 167
Joined: Apr 2, 2015

China builds

Post by cowhax »

China FI???
User avatar
Switzerland _venox_
Howdah
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mar 27, 2015
ESO: _Venox_
Location: Switzerland

China builds

Post by _venox_ »

It's true: Old han reform qiang-pikemen actually do counter cannons, at least cost efficiency wise (because they won't die after 1 shot)
Don't let the things you can't change dictate your life.
User avatar
Russia yurashic
Howdah
Posts: 1303
Joined: Feb 28, 2015
ESO: Yurashic
Location: Russia

China builds

Post by yurashic »

I saw H2Os past streams. He plays China quite often and ages up to 3 with the porcellain tower every game. Why is that? How do you not die without 8 arquebuesiers? Why is a res tricle that is similar to 5 vills better than a flying crow?
User avatar
India Nymphomaniac
Dragoon
Posts: 380
Joined: Feb 17, 2015

China builds

Post by Nymphomaniac »

yurashic wrote:I saw H2Os past streams. He plays China quite often and ages up to 3 with the porcellain tower every game. Why is that? How do you not die without 8 arquebuesiers? Why is a res tricle that is similar to 5 vills better than a flying crow?
i think he does that only in mirrors or vs some boomy civs may be.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

China builds

Post by zoom »

yurashic wrote:I saw H2Os past streams. He plays China quite often and ages up to 3 with the porcellain tower every game. Why is that? How do you not die without 8 arquebuesiers? Why is a res tricle that is similar to 5 vills better than a flying crow?
It''s because Porc Tower is very good for Fortress relative to other ages (7-8 vills rather than 5). You do die without 8 Arqs against any decent rush' he just wasn''t subject to any decent rush in any of those games. Finally, it is better because you get to choose whether to trickle wood or coin, it''s an immediate benefit (as opposed to a bulk one after five fucking minutes) and doesn''t require population room.
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

China builds

Post by _H2O »

[quote author="@zoom" source="/post/11938/thread" timestamp="1432996442"][quote author="@h2o" source="/post/11863/thread" timestamp="1432942559"]My guess is China is highly misunderstood by this group. Check it my past streams on twitch.tv/ryanmankle. I play a lot of China. I will edit this post later with more detail. Two big points

First cards HAVE to be villager card, 700 gold, 700 wood. You cannot play colonial if you do anything else you may as well not play China.

Second, you need to improve your villager defense skills. You cannot be lazy during transition.

More details you can pick out of my past streams there's tons of small things to build on this. Also more cards and other obvious stuff[/quote]1. Please define "this group".
2. Your understanding doesn't differ from any other half-decent player's one, AFAIK.
[/quote]This group is the people who usually post in these threads, could replace that with the word meta. They won't have this level of detail on hand, and they would recommend using the 8 skirm and flying crow wonder, sending 8 ckn would be an option to them. Honestly its not an option for me.

Aging up with tower is 8 vils on wood. Its superior to the other wonder. I age up with it every game, take a look at my previous streams and see how much pressure I hold.

I would disagree with that comment, but that not really important.

Here is the detail i promised earlier, after some testing I have a much better idea of exact timings and tried to detail what i have in my memory in the form of a free flow list. If someone wants to take this and write it up for the strategy wall that would be cool. Also more than willing to explain in detail why I won't send 8 ckn and also why I won't make any batches other than sword skirm and cav along with any other firm rules I have.

[ul type="disc"][li]5 Vils on food, build a house, put goat on it immediately. House should be positioned near second gold and tc with small gap between tc for walking[/li][li]All future vils go to wood, chop to 200 wood for second house[/li][li]2nd house goes near another patch of resources, just as close to tc as the first[/li][li]Make vils until 17[/li][li]On 17 vils, pull goat off of the house (~140 food on goat) eat it with 3-4 vils that are on a hunt thats about to run out[/li][li]Age up with 17 vils, then queue 18th[/li][li]Age up with summer palace, only one vil starts, then task 3 more to it[/li][li]Once the 18th vil is started, make sure 2nd hunt is herded under tc and put 4 vils on gold (The goal is 380 mined gold[/li][li]Once you get up (~21 Vils) put 1 vil on food crates, the other 3 go to food[/li][li]Change wonder to xbow pike always[/li][li]Queue 700 gold, 700 wood as you get the exp[/li][li]Make sure you stop mining gold at 380 gold, you are targeting 1200 food with constant vil production[/li][li]When 700 gold arrives put 5 vils on the 500 crate, 1 vil on each 100 crate.[/li][li]Drop procelen tower with one vil close to your base, have your explorer and disciple in base[/li][li]Carefully call the pike minutes to make sure you can cleanly gather to drop your wonder. [/li][li]Once the wonder is dropped put 6-7 on gold (The balance will vary if you get harassed because you may be belling vils. Make sure you get to 160 food 160 gold for both minutes[/li][li]When 700 wood comes in drop a tp, rax, market, consolate all in a building wall setup close to tc[/li][li]Before you get up you will likely have to defend, so its hard to say what you will be able to train[/li][li]General rule: cav batch >' skirm sword batch[/li][li]Send the 9 musket card and ally with british[/li][li]Set tower to wood[/li][li]Drop next house when you get to 200 wood (if you fight a lot then get market ups)[/li][li]Keep making units as possible, always try to keep 5 discp ready[/li][li]5 Meteor, 10 skirm ( 11 sword or manchu depending if you end up needing anti cav badly)[/li][li]Dont forget your about to have 400 export when you click the 3rd fortress shipment[/li][li]At 90 house pop you can start using the house tech to improve pop space if you are not ready to drop a house[/li][li]If you build houses after that you get 25 pop each, so its better to build them[/li][/ul]
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

China builds

Post by _H2O »

zoom wrote:
yurashic wrote:I saw H2Os past streams. He plays China quite often and ages up to 3 with the porcellain tower every game. Why is that? How do you not die without 8 arquebuesiers? Why is a res tricle that is similar to 5 vills better than a flying crow?
Its because Porc Tower is very good for Fortress relative to other ages (7-8 vills rather than 5). You do die without 8 Arqs against any decent rush' he just wasnt subject to any decent rush in any of those games. Finally, it is better because you get to choose whether to trickle wood or coin, its an immediate benefit (as opposed to a bulk one after five fucking minutes) and doesnt require population room.
Its actually a mix interestingly. The skirm wonder is instant because you get 8 skirms, but slower because the trickle is constant and the flying crow has to train then pop.

Its only 8 vils on wood, its more like 6.5-7 on coin and considerably less on food, but the power to change it in a pinch is nice for sure.

The resources are needed to make units with china, usually I get around 1k wood from it over the course of a game before winning. That is around 4.25 minutes into fortress (11:30 mark). That amount of wood is equal to the most cost effective shipment in fortress (1k wood crates).
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

China builds

Post by Jaeger »

[quote source="/post/12674/thread" timestamp="1433292763" author="@h2o"][quote source="/post/11938/thread" timestamp="1432996442" author="@zoom"]1. Please define "this group".
2. Your understanding doesn't differ from any other half-decent player's one, AFAIK.
[/quote]This group is the people who usually post in these threads, could replace that with the word meta. They won't have this level of detail on hand, and they would recommend using the 8 skirm and flying crow wonder, sending 8 ckn would be an option to them. Honestly its not an option for me.

Aging up with tower is 8 vils on wood. Its superior to the other wonder. I age up with it every game, take a look at my previous streams and see how much pressure I hold.

I would disagree with that comment, but that not really important.

Here is the detail i promised earlier, after some testing I have a much better idea of exact timings and tried to detail what i have in my memory in the form of a free flow list. If someone wants to take this and write it up for the strategy wall that would be cool. Also more than willing to explain in detail why I won't send 8 ckn and also why I won't make any batches other than sword skirm and cav along with any other firm rules I have.

[ul type="disc"][li]5 Vils on food, build a house, put goat on it immediately. House should be positioned near second gold and tc with small gap between tc for walking[/li][li]All future vils go to wood, chop to 200 wood for second house[/li][li]2nd house goes near another patch of resources, just as close to tc as the first[/li][li]Make vils until 17[/li][li]On 17 vils, pull goat off of the house (~140 food on goat) eat it with 3-4 vils that are on a hunt thats about to run out[/li][li]Age up with 17 vils, then queue 18th[/li][li]Age up with summer palace, only one vil starts, then task 3 more to it[/li][li]Once the 18th vil is started, make sure 2nd hunt is herded under tc and put 4 vils on gold (The goal is 380 mined gold[/li][li]Once you get up (~21 Vils) put 1 vil on food crates, the other 3 go to food[/li][li]Change wonder to xbow pike always[/li][li]Queue 700 gold, 700 wood as you get the exp[/li][li]Make sure you stop mining gold at 380 gold, you are targeting 1200 food with constant vil production[/li][li]When 700 gold arrives put 5 vils on the 500 crate, 1 vil on each 100 crate.[/li][li]Drop procelen tower with one vil close to your base, have your explorer and disciple in base[/li][li]Carefully call the pike minutes to make sure you can cleanly gather to drop your wonder. [/li][li]Once the wonder is dropped put 6-7 on gold (The balance will vary if you get harassed because you may be belling vils. Make sure you get to 160 food 160 gold for both minutes[/li][li]When 700 wood comes in drop a tp, rax, market, consolate all in a building wall setup close to tc[/li][li]Before you get up you will likely have to defend, so its hard to say what you will be able to train[/li][li]General rule: cav batch >' skirm sword batch[/li][li]Send the 9 musket card and ally with british[/li][li]Set tower to wood[/li][li]Drop next house when you get to 200 wood (if you fight a lot then get market ups)[/li][li]Keep making units as possible, always try to keep 5 discp ready[/li][li]5 Meteor, 10 skirm ( 11 sword or manchu depending if you end up needing anti cav badly)[/li][li]Dont forget your about to have 400 export when you click the 3rd fortress shipment[/li][li]At 90 house pop you can start using the house tech to improve pop space if you are not ready to drop a house[/li][li]If you build houses after that you get 25 pop each, so its better to build them[/li][/ul]

[/quote]China cav is really cost inefficient tho but the shipments are good, why not just ship cav and make inf instead of making cav and shipping if? Also, I saw your game vs Garja playing germany. Don't you think it would be good to make some dopps vs China? I have a deck with 5 dopps only for vs china and vs spain lol. If you have dopps I think you can outskirm china, outcav them, and dopps rape the changdo+pike mix.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Switzerland _venox_
Howdah
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mar 27, 2015
ESO: _Venox_
Location: Switzerland

China builds

Post by _venox_ »

Chinese fortress cav is cost efficient and quite strong.

Iron Flail:
285.7 VS
350 hp
40% RR
22 dmg
*1.5 vs inf besides heavy inf
1 aoe

Meteor Hammer:
291 VS
260 hp
30% RR
34 dmg
5 range
*2 vs artillery

both cheaper than a hussar, partly tankier, having aoe ( a bit like cuiraser) and multiplier vs inf (like sowar/lancer) and range (so won't get killed first, hitting through the iron flails = more surface area) and countering artillery better,...
Don't let the things you can't change dictate your life.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

China builds

Post by Jaeger »

venox wrote:Chinese fortress cav is cost efficient and quite strong.

Iron Flail:
285.7 VS
350 hp
40% RR
22 dmg
*1.5 vs inf besides heavy inf
1 aoe

Meteor Hammer:
291 VS
260 hp
30% RR
34 dmg
5 range
*2 vs artillery

both cheaper than a hussar, partly tankier, having aoe ( a bit like cuiraser) and multiplier vs inf (like sowar/lancer) and range (so won''t get killed first, hitting through the iron flails = more surface area) and countering artillery better,...
You need to compare it to a vet hussar, which should cost (rough calculation my my head) ~240 VS with steel traps/placer mines and has like 400 HP and almost 40 attack, if you look only at attack/hp witouth the otehr factors china cav seems absolutely terrible, and I don''t think the other bonuses are good enough to compensate for it.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV