China builds

[[Armag] diarouga]

Hum, so the tower is better, interesting...
I didn't know if eating the goat age1 was a good idea. Nice to see you think it is.

[_H2O]

btw this is why arguing about stats is not helpful

[yurashic]

Veteran hussars have 352 hp and 36 attack, not 400/40. Chinese cav is absolutely devastating with damage from rage and high ranged resistance.

Can anybody tell me how to win French with Chinese? They do cav semi and in fortress spam mostly cuirs, I get seriously outmassed and can't win!

[cowhax]

I'm always conflicted about best wonders for China. Like H2O you say the tower gives you 1k wood by 4~ minutes. I don't think tower is bad, but why do this instead of Confucian academy + a 1k wood shipment? What is your typical shipment order after FF with tower?

[_venox_]

A hussar costs 276.2 VS since I used no market ups for the iron flails and meteor hammers aswell and the upgrade is 733.3 extra VS...
1 meteor + 1 flail have together about 20% more hitpoints (vs ranged) and about 30% more dmg (vs inf it's over 60%), disregarding the 5 range and the bonus vs artillery costing only 4% more' This ofc compared to colonial hussars. If compared to veteran hussars the hitpoints are about even and the dmg still 10% higher and over 40% vs inf disregarding the 5 range and the art multiplier, but the veterancy upgrade is worth about 2.5 of the chinese fortress cav.

[Jaeger]

A hussar costs 276.2 VS since I used no market ups for the iron flails and meteor hammers aswell and the upgrade is 733.3 extra VS...
1 meteor + 1 flail have together about 20% more hitpoints (vs ranged) and about 30% more dmg (vs inf it''s over 60%), disregarding the 5 range and the bonus vs artillery costing only 4% more' This ofc compared to colonial hussars. If compared to veteran hussars the hitpoints are about even and the dmg still 10% higher and over 40% vs inf disregarding the 5 range and the art multiplier, but the veterancy upgrade is worth about 2.5 of the chinese fortress cav.

You''re comparing irom+meteor vs 2 vet huss? Btw you should probably calculate with market upgrades, that changes the proportions of VS by a lot

[_venox_]

Ye and also factor in the general 5% and general 15% special asian market upgrades or what? Oh and french could have a better eco, oh and factor in that french can harass china, but then you have to look at china's free army too and their shipments in combination with the cost efficiency of the rest of their army + map (facepalm)btw it wouldn't look differently with the market ups, since those cost more resources too and you then also need the general villager count which also isn't even etc etc... too many things to look at if you say market ups.


When comparing units you just have to look at the units, what I did in uhlan vs hussar was french vs germans where you can generally say that both get steel traps and placer mines. What I wanted to say is that no more considerations are needed, that after a comparison you can then add the result to the general picture of a specific matchup. Chinese cav is way better than hussars at least, but most others have other cool cav too in fortress age.

[_H2O]

I''m always conflicted about best wonders for China. Like H2O you say the tower gives you 1k wood by 4~ minutes. I don''t think tower is bad, but why do this instead of Confucian academy + a 1k wood shipment? What is your typical shipment order after FF with tower?

Check out the bullets. Muskets' 5 meteor, 10 skirm. Though this line would not be the best, as we talk about a lot, it''s not as simple as that comparison makes it look.

[cowhax]

Ah you didn't specify a shipment order, though I could've concluded that you implied they were shipments. I figured intervention was first or close to it. It just seems like FF Tower to Intervention is nearly the same build order as FF Confucian to 1k wood. or if you wanted to, could do FF Confucian to 1k gold/food/saigas to keep up manual military production. I think there's merit to either build order.

[deleted_user0]

Well if you go for the bland comparison, tower and then skirs on 3rd fortress shipment is about the same as confuciqn and 1000w on the 3rd fortress ship. But the game isnt usually over by then. Most of the time actually this is when the fun begins because its around the 12 min mark by then.

In the medium to lomg run tower seems far superior. But also more fragile to timing pushes that are designed to hit the moment china starts to age. Or that hits when china age up. Imo that is the best way to counter china. Their eco isnt that good, and their shipment rate not that high. So if you can fight the shipments one by one ur standing a good chance. Also they have pop issues, so infantry semis should be used instead of cav semis imo. Taking out 1 or 2 villages is a big blow to them i feel. Alalso it might force them to send bows which is really undesirable

[Jaeger]

Im always conflicted about best wonders for China. Like H2O you say the tower gives you 1k wood by 4~ minutes. I dont think tower is bad, but why do this instead of Confucian academy + a 1k wood shipment? What is your typical shipment order after FF with tower?

Check out the bullets. Muskets' 5 meteor, 10 skirm. Though this line would not be the best, as we talk about a lot, its not as simple as that comparison makes it look.

Can you show us a game vs an age 2 civ with more siege? The only one I saw was stanley going mace coyo, how about like musk huss

[_H2O]

check my custom stats, aztec was the most challenging thing I've played.

Also on the stats arguement, try not to get lost in numbers and percentages. Theres so many other dynamics in the game around those numbers. Looking at just a cost to stats comparison is going to leave you with the wrong direction.

[Jaeger]

check my custom stats, aztec was the most challenging thing I''ve played.

Also on the stats arguement, try not to get lost in numbers and percentages. Theres so many other dynamics in the game around those numbers. Looking at just a cost to stats comparison is going to leave you with the wrong direction.

Yeah I saw you play a couple games vs aztec, but it was mostly mace/coyote. I wanna see a game where you play vs more siegy units units witouth 8 skirms/8 chukonu, my china suck a lot lol need to improve it.

[_H2O]

Ah I was not too clear there. I meant I have played against siege stuff and it would be in custom stats and also past vids. I played s lot of china lately.

[Jaeger]

[span style="font-size:12pt'"]Also more than willing to explain in detail why I wont send 8 ckn and also why I wont make any batches other than sword skirm and cav along with any other firm rules I have.[/span]

Can you explain the 8 ckn and the batches? Like would you send 8ckn vs aztec that starts like 10 puma or something?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Can you explain the 8 ckn and the batches? Like would you send 8ckn vs aztec that starts like 10 puma or something?

Never send 8chuk.

[Jaeger]

Can you explain the 8 ckn and the batches? Like would you send 8ckn vs aztec that starts like 10 puma or something?

Never send 8chuk.

So what if you get completely pike rushed lol. When h2o got strelet rushed by aiz he said he wished he had 7 steppe in his deck, and then he put it in after the game so there are some situations where u send units lol

[[Armag] diarouga]

Never send 8chuk.

So what if you get completely pike rushed lol. When h2o got strelet rushed by aiz he said he wished he had 7 steppe in his deck, and then he put it in after the game so there are some situations where u send units lol

You have mm, 3 bow, tc fire, explo and skirm from age 3 ( I didnt test h2os build yet).

[Papist]

You rarely need unit ships in age 2 as China. Against Russia, you should be able to hold with TC fire, your monk, your Old Han, your mm and your disciples. The only civs this won't work against are top tier and there isn't much you can do to beat them with China anyways.

[deleted_user0]

Nah thats just bs. U cant hold an all in russia rush with just that. Specially if aging tower

[[Armag] diarouga]

Nah thats just bs. U cant hold an all in russia rush with just that. Specially if aging tower

From what I''ve seen russia>china, right?

[deleted_user0]

i dunno, im not good enough with either civ to make a claim like that. but if u have 10 musk and 5 cossack in ur base at 5.30 ur still miles away from having the units from palace and they can easily get 1 or 2 houses if china doesnt send unit ships. if china had CM they would be totally fine :/ but they dont

[Durokan]

Hey h20, let me start by saying I fully agree with what you have said about china so far 100%. I am just wondering if you could tell me why china cannot stay age 2. I am thinking about something and this would help quite a bit. Lets Also play the IF game. Lets say you were a dev, and you added an age two dragoon to a stable that didnt train in a banner army. Disregard the likelihood of this happening, i would just like to know if a dragoon could miraculously fix chinas problems. The second building only has the dragoon, and this is significant because it requires having this in addition to the war academy. I can share thoughts in a pm over this site if you want to hear more of what I have to say on this topic.

[Goodspeed]

It isn't really anticav they lack, it's cav, and eco shipments. I could see age2 goons fixing their problems though, not because that's what they need but because age2 goons are really strong.
Why? Is this an actual idea about how to fix the civ or just theorizing to reach a better understanding of it?

[Garja]

Dragoons would make china even more op. They are totally fine as they are now.