11 changdao vs 8 halberdiers

edehollandsbrother · Post by **edehollandsbrother** » 30 May 2015, 09:10

China often uses 11 changdao but nobody uses 8 halberdiers. Why is that? They are basically the same unit type (changdao being cheaper and weaker) but 8 halberdiers easily beat 11 changdao.
I guess China's lack of dragoons is a reason, but that doesn't suddenly make changdao a good unit, does it?

iNcog · Post by **iNcog** » 30 May 2015, 09:12

Probably because civs which have 8 halbs have better shipments than that. or at least shipments which have more synergy with the go-to euro composition which is skirm/goon/cav

Also probably because Euro civs prefer to have a ranged comp with skirms and goons rather than a melee'ish composition which china doesn't mind having, since their units are well suited for the task (especially their cavalry).

_DB_ · Post by **_DB_** » 30 May 2015, 09:15

It's official, changdao sucks.
If you're getting 11 of it, it's worth it. Otherwise, qiang pikes.

I've no idea why halberds are so ignored. Goons are more considerate anti-cav. If me playing as Dutch, I can use few halberds as fast siege potential. Otherwise, musk/skirm/goons more efficient. 8 skirm is a better shipment.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 30 May 2015, 09:16

1 st because china doesn't have goons, and they don't send 11 changdoas often, muskets are much better.
2nd, you forgot that chang are much faster.

fei123456 · Post by **fei123456** » 30 May 2015, 09:45

if halberd has 5 speed i will send them too

fei123456 · Post by **fei123456** » 30 May 2015, 10:17

speed is most important to melee infantries
if changdao has 4 speed they are shit. if halberd has 5 speed they are god.

edehollandsbrother · Post by **edehollandsbrother** » 30 May 2015, 10:53

Ok thanks for the replies, I forgot the speed difference yes.

cowhax · Post by **cowhax** » 30 May 2015, 11:44

I'd say Keshik (<---Those things) count as goons. they're just the cheapest garbagest goons in the game that function best en masse and with some other unit type to back them up. China has decent keshik shipments (infinite 8 keshik card in age 3, the steppe/keshik shipment + veteran upgrade for 1k food card) so you could use those for your anti-cav instead of getting scrap pikemen with them by training from the war academy. they have good range resist, unlike changdao, so I really wonder why people bother with changdao at all.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 30 May 2015, 12:30

cuz changdao come with skirms, keshik come with useless pikes

cowhax · Post by **cowhax** » 30 May 2015, 12:39

garja wrote:cuz changdao come with skirms, keshik come with useless pikes

I knew that much. I meant for shipments.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 30 May 2015, 12:53

11 changdao is a op shipment, it's like 11 vet rods

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 30 May 2015, 14:19

Lack of options' limited anti-cav production capability.

Einfein · Post by **Einfein** » 31 May 2015, 01:00

And lets not forget the civ with the strongest halbs in the game, the Dutch. Halbs that will kill most infantry/cav. And ironically one of the Dutchs' mandatory eco church improvements slows their speed even further. Absolutely useless. GG no re.

yurashic · Post by **yurashic** » 31 May 2015, 02:05

Changdaos are good, nice base damage and high speed. They do well vs everything they can come into melee, and speed means a lot here. And there is a nice card which buffs both arquebuesiers and changdao.

cowhax · Post by **cowhax** » 01 Jun 2015, 00:36

einfein wrote:And lets not forget the civ with the strongest halbs in the game, the Dutch. Halbs that will kill most infantry/cav. And ironically one of the Dutchs'' mandatory eco church improvements slows their speed even further. Absolutely useless. GG no re.

Coffee trade isn''t a mandatory upgrade. If anything it''s mid-late game' when mines run out and there''s an abundance of wood. And considering this excess, you could send advanced arsenal for the infantry speed boost upgrade to counteract the penalty coffee trade gives.

Post by **_H2O** » 01 Jun 2015, 00:46

Changdao are good to me actually. They mix well with the cav and discple and explorer. They have the speed necessary to mix with the army. Speed is the big problem with halbs.

cowhax · Post by **cowhax** » 01 Jun 2015, 01:20

I suppose yeah, if you're absolutely looking to defend your infantry from hand cav. That's something keshik can't really do since they have ranged resist, as do hand cav, so keshik can't really effectively hold back Uhlan etc.

divine_moon · Post by **divine_moon** » 01 Jun 2015, 02:01

don't know about upgraded keshiks.. but once in a sioux-china matchup, i literally decimated a ton of keshiks & steppe riders with massed BRs..

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 01 Jun 2015, 15:22

Dutch could send the speed upgrade for halbs and get the AA speed upgrade aswell but that'd be too costly sadly, and imo AA not worth it as a card since you already got 3 nice infantery ups and you won't get any cav/artillery ups that will win you games, just mostly infantery ):

ESOC

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