german vs china

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Post by zoom »

method wrote:
zoom wrote:How are Consulate Redcoats, Manchu, or Changdao overpowered? Do you even play Chinese?? Ever???

Also saying that the Flying Crow is "free ffs" is ignorant, foolish, and a moot point as its a Wonder bonus' if you didnt get a Flying crow once every four minutes youd get something else ?? its a trade-off compromise.
Manchu and changdao absoulutely tear through uhlans, forcing the german player to mass more skirms, which get molestated by chinas insane cav, additionally ww just suck compared to chinas anti cav imo, so therefore china has a much better composition, along with free cannons, which are so hard to take out as you lose so much shit doing so. And the wonder gives you 7 skirms on age up, so the cannons are free. Also the musks are better than veteran and are therefore extremely cost effective, after germans few nice shipments they lose all steam aswell as gold mines and just die.
Well I fucking hope dedicated anti-cavalry counters heavy cavalry, and I hope you hope so too! I dont see how it makes the units overpowered. Chinese cavalry is not insane in any positive way at all (please see http://eso-community.net/post/15592). Chinese would be far stronger if they had War Wagons instead of Changdao. You receive a single Flying Crow every four long minutes and its population inefficient, slow and short-range. On top of those facts you forego the Porcelain Tower if you decide to advance to Fortress Age with the Confucian Academy which is a massive compromise. The only good thing theres to say about Flying Crows is that they one-shot Falconets. All Consulate units in the entire game are 10% (combat) better than their ages respective counterpart, yes. The amount of units available from the Consulate is very limited so I again fail to see how this is so terribly unbalanced apart from Intervention shipping one Redcoat too many.
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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

german>china, come on!
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Post by iNcog »

zoom wrote:Indeed, but 8 Uhlans is worse than 7 Skirms and 3 Uhlans.


pretty sure that garja has been arguing that 8, 7 skirm shipments and the 9, 8 uhlan shipments can turn the tide of the game in an instant, as soon as they arrive, whereas you don''t have that kind of explosive increase of army strength with other shipments.

numbers aren''t everything, you need to put shit into context


8 uhlans is the better shipment if the other bastard doesn''t have a lot of anti-cav
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:Indeed, but 8 Uhlans is worse than 7 Skirms and 3 Uhlans.
No shit. 8 skirms+3 ulhans also better than 9 ulhans? so the latter is bad?
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Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:Indeed, but 8 Uhlans is worse than 7 Skirms and 3 Uhlans.
Isn''t 8 Uhlans better resourcewise?
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Post by zoom »

[quote source="/post/15321/thread" timestamp="1434308044" author="@garja"]China is a much better civ overall than Germans, like it's not even close. And btw all asian civs are. The sole fact that they have ups for all their units and not just 2/3 like euro civ do is already enough to be considered better overall.
German is a BO civ. Once the 4 big shipments are gone they're really nothing special. Pretty much all other civs in the game have the same potential, and when it doesn't feel the case it is just because Germans build grants a buffer of advantage to transition in the next stage of the game.

China has no cav problem at all the longer the game goes. Changdao or simply their amazing cav are more than enough for that. You wouldn't make goons anyway vs Germans just like you use rods and not goons as Spain. And it's not like Germans have many more anticav options than China anyway.

As for eco in terms of gathered resources they're kinda similar, none of them has stellar eco like Japan, India, Brits, Russia, etc. But the fact that they both get tons of units for free partially compensate it for a while. And in that regard China outclass Germans which is quite impressive in itself. They just get lot of free stuff from cards, consulate, wonders and the monk (disciples). Also their production is more evenly spread across the 3 resources than the German one, so it is less likely that they will lack a certain resource before Germans.

Also China has a couple of lame mechanics that can straight off win you games like the monk randomly tanking lot of a damage in a fight( and pooping discples from dead units lol) or random mams from the monastery in fortress age.[/quote]Japanese and Indians are better civilizations than Germans, but Chinese are not at all on the level of those two.

That sole fact would be enough if it were the only difference, which it is not. Isolating individual positives without even mentioning their drawbacks or any negatives of the respective civilization(s) reveals either ignorance or bias and makes for a very skewed and flawed argument. Consider the greater picture individual bonuses do not by any means, by themselves, render a civilization overpowered. To make matters worse, a lot of the things you claim are just plainly false: Germans get 3 Uhlans with every Fortress Age shipment, regardless of whether it belongs to a grouping of four shipments or not. "Pretty much all other civlizations having the same potential" is not an argument against Germans' if anything it's the desirable state of affairs from a balance perspective.

Until the Chinese is able to send Old Han Reforms (presuming the player is ever able to reach the Industrial Age *GOATLULZ*), Chinese has a clear lack of anti-cavalry owing to the fact that you quickly run out of such shipments, and can only produce 50% anti-cavalry at any given time (discounting Ming Army which is sub-par in Fortress Age). 100% Changdao would be good enough for anti-cavalry. What a pity you cannot produce that. Chinese "amazing" cavalry is fucking atrocious for countering cavalry, no less. It's also a pity Changdao aren't Rodeleros' they don't have 6 speed or 40% melee resistance.

As for economy please refer to all-resources gathered in any game ever played between with Chinese and Germans respectively (hint: Chinese gather far less resources. This isn't necessarily a balance issue as Chinese have advantages in certain other areas but to claim that their economy is equal is just flat-out false). Your point about "free units" is also misguided' Chinese get just as much "for free" from cards as any other civ in the game except for Germans and Indians who get more, zilch from the Chinese Monk (stands a 10% chance to spawn Disciple with about a 0.01% chance the Monk lands the killing blow to stand this chance in the first place' Disciples are terribly cost-inefficient and countered by anti-cavalry and only really useful when trained mid-battle) and the Consulate is an Asian civilization bonus not unique to the Chinese for which you must compromise improvements to produce a very limited amount of units. With that said, at least it is true that they get a relatively small number of units for free from Wonders and the Consulate, without which they would struggle even more than they already do. Also, on your point related to production, it is completely incorrect' your entire production is distributed across food and coin, as is most civilizations'.
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Post by zoom »

incog wrote:
zoom wrote:Indeed, but 8 Uhlans is worse than 7 Skirms and 3 Uhlans.
pretty sure that garja has been arguing that 8, 7 skirm shipments and the 9, 8 uhlan shipments can turn the tide of the game in an instant, as soon as they arrive, whereas you dont have that kind of explosive increase of army strength with other shipments.

numbers arent everything, you need to put shit into context


8 uhlans is the better shipment if the other bastard doesnt have a lot of anti-cav
It is, but outside of what unit a given situation calls for (as in, most generally as well as in the vast majority of specific cases), 7 Skirmishers and 3 Uhlans is a better shipment than 8 Uhlans. I dont think 8 Uhlans is a useless shipment at all but I certainly think its overrated.
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Post by zoom »

garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Indeed, but 8 Uhlans is worse than 7 Skirms and 3 Uhlans.
No shit. 8 skirms+3 ulhans also better than 9 ulhans? so the latter is bad?
No the latter is almost as good because its 900 resources most of which is coin. Your argument would be sound if it had any relevance to the point Im making in the first place ?? Im comparing two other shipments.
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Post by zoom »

jerom wrote:
zoom wrote:Indeed, but 8 Uhlans is worse than 7 Skirms and 3 Uhlans.
Isnt 8 Uhlans better resourcewise?
Its slightly worse. I dont think 7 Skirmishers is a great shipment either compared to the alternatives, but its most often effective than 8 Uhlans.
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Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
incog wrote:pretty sure that garja has been arguing that 8, 7 skirm shipments and the 9, 8 uhlan shipments can turn the tide of the game in an instant, as soon as they arrive, whereas you dont have that kind of explosive increase of army strength with other shipments.

numbers arent everything, you need to put shit into context


8 uhlans is the better shipment if the other bastard doesnt have a lot of anti-cav
It is, but outside of what unit a given situation calls for (as in, most generally as well as in the vast majority of specific cases), 7 Skirmishers and 3 Uhlans is a better shipment than 8 Uhlans. I dont think 8 Uhlans is a useless shipment at all but I certainly think its overrated.


Its not insane really. Its basically 5+3 Uhlan. But 5 uhlan isnt a bad shipment, especially for a civ that can mass cav so easily.
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Post by Papist »

China may be better than Germany in Fortress, but why on Earth would you let them get there? A good German should have dopps in the guys base killing villages and settlers. GG China.
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Post by jsimons1289 »

Zoom - with an earlyish fortress timing China does fine in terms of anti-cav. The redcoats make a huge difference and they need to be used effectively. If German survive a few skirmishes then yes, China's only solution in fortress is pretty much manchu.

The biggest problem vs China is being able to micro vs a shit load of units. Uhlans don't tank much damage and vs a huge mass that's an issue.
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Post by iNcog »

vast majority of specific cases? kek

edit: yeah here it is:

I don't think 8 Uhlans is a useless shipment at all but I certainly think it's overrated.


there is no rating shipments. there are shipments which are always good to send for sure, but there are fortress shipments where it's better to send what's best given a current situation.
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by zoom »

jerom wrote:
zoom wrote:It is, but outside of what unit a given situation calls for (as in, most generally as well as in the vast majority of specific cases), 7 Skirmishers and 3 Uhlans is a better shipment than 8 Uhlans. I dont think 8 Uhlans is a useless shipment at all but I certainly think its overrated.
Its not insane really. Its basically 5+3 Uhlan. But 5 uhlan isnt a bad shipment, especially for a civ that can mass cav so easily.
5 Uhlans is a fairly poor Fortress Age shipment at just 750 resources. 7 Skirmishers isnt fantastic either but it takes the shit-cake. There are better options most of the time.
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Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
jerom wrote:Its not insane really. Its basically 5+3 Uhlan. But 5 uhlan isnt a bad shipment, especially for a civ that can mass cav so easily.
5 Uhlans is a fairly poor Fortress Age shipment at just 750 resources. 7 Skirmishers isnt fantastic either but it takes the shit-cake. There are better options most of the time.
Its a coin heavy 750 resources so its pretty decent. Probably comparable to 5 huss. I feel like it just fits in with the civ pretty well.
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Post by Garja »

[quote source="/post/15694/thread" timestamp="1434403959" author="@zoom"][quote source="/post/15321/thread" timestamp="1434308044" author="@garja"]China is a much better civ overall than Germans, like it's not even close. And btw all asian civs are. The sole fact that they have ups for all their units and not just 2/3 like euro civ do is already enough to be considered better overall.
German is a BO civ. Once the 4 big shipments are gone they're really nothing special. Pretty much all other civs in the game have the same potential, and when it doesn't feel the case it is just because Germans build grants a buffer of advantage to transition in the next stage of the game.

China has no cav problem at all the longer the game goes. Changdao or simply their amazing cav are more than enough for that. You wouldn't make goons anyway vs Germans just like you use rods and not goons as Spain. And it's not like Germans have many more anticav options than China anyway.

As for eco in terms of gathered resources they're kinda similar, none of them has stellar eco like Japan, India, Brits, Russia, etc. But the fact that they both get tons of units for free partially compensate it for a while. And in that regard China outclass Germans which is quite impressive in itself. They just get lot of free stuff from cards, consulate, wonders and the monk (disciples). Also their production is more evenly spread across the 3 resources than the German one, so it is less likely that they will lack a certain resource before Germans.

Also China has a couple of lame mechanics that can straight off win you games like the monk randomly tanking lot of a damage in a fight( and pooping discples from dead units lol) or random mams from the monastery in fortress age.[/quote]Japanese and Indians are better civilizations than Germans, but Chinese are not at all on the level of those two.

That sole fact would be enough if it were the only difference, which it is not. Isolating individual positives without even mentioning their drawbacks or any negatives of the respective civilization(s) reveals either ignorance or bias and makes for a very skewed and flawed argument. Consider the greater picture individual bonuses do not by any means, by themselves, render a civilization overpowered. To make matters worse, a lot of the things you claim are just plainly false: Germans get 3 Uhlans with every Fortress Age shipment, regardless of whether it belongs to a grouping of four shipments or not. "Pretty much all other civlizations having the same potential" is not an argument against Germans' if anything it's the desirable state of affairs from a balance perspective.

Until the Chinese is able to send Old Han Reforms (presuming the player is ever able to reach the Industrial Age *GOATLULZ*), Chinese has a clear lack of anti-cavalry owing to the fact that you quickly run out of such shipments, and can only produce 50% anti-cavalry at any given time (discounting Ming Army which is sub-par in Fortress Age). 100% Changdao would be good enough for anti-cavalry. What a pity you cannot produce that. Chinese "amazing" cavalry is fucking atrocious for countering cavalry, no less. It's also a pity Changdao aren't Rodeleros' they don't have 6 speed or 40% melee resistance.

As for economy please refer to all-resources gathered in any game ever played between with Chinese and Germans respectively (hint: Chinese gather far less resources. This isn't necessarily a balance issue as Chinese have advantages in certain other areas but to claim that their economy is equal is just flat-out false). Your point about "free units" is also misguided' Chinese get just as much "for free" from cards as any other civ in the game except for Germans and Indians who get more, zilch from the Chinese Monk (stands a 10% chance to spawn Disciple with about a 0.01% chance the Monk lands the killing blow to stand this chance in the first place' Disciples are terribly cost-inefficient and countered by anti-cavalry and only really useful when trained mid-battle) and the Consulate is an Asian civilization bonus not unique to the Chinese for which you must compromise improvements to produce a very limited amount of units. With that said, at least it is true that they get a relatively small number of units for free from Wonders and the Consulate, without which they would struggle even more than they already do. Also, on your point related to production, it is completely incorrect' your entire production is distributed across food and coin, as is most civilizations'.
[/quote]
The phantomatic cav weakness is what lead Germans and Sioux to be considered counter civs for China and yet the point still remains, China is a better civ overall than both.
Pretty much every other argument is totally irrelevant as each one of them is counterable by other arguments. One for all: " Changdao aren't Rodeleros' they don't have 6 speed or 40% melee resistance", yes except they have more attack and they cost 95f opposed to 65f 35g and they come autoupgraded.

Also stop refereing to Flying crows as you're not aging with that wonder vs Germany.
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Post by Mitoe »

Germans just win this match-up (on most maps). No matter what you try, Germany will age up at roughly the same time, with twice the eco, 2-6 uhlans and a tp. Even if you kill all the uhlans, you'll never catch up with the german eco (3SW OP). The only way you can win is get up safely (and no vil losses) and hope Germany overextends and runs his cav into your cav mass and be able to snipe off the entire skirm mass. And yeah, the 9 musket card is extremely good, but 8 skirms + 3 vet uhlans is way better.
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Post by Papist »

admin wrote:Germans just win this match-up (on most maps). No matter what you try, Germany will age up at roughly the same time, with twice the eco, 2-6 uhlans and a tp. Even if you kill all the uhlans, you''ll never catch up with the german eco (3SW OP). The only way you can win is get up safely (and no vil losses) and hope Germany overextends and runs his cav into your cav mass and be able to snipe off the entire skirm mass. And yeah, the 9 musket card is extremely good, but 8 skirms + 3 vet uhlans is way better.
Those musks effectively shut down all early age 3 raids before they can happen, allowing the Chinese eco to catch up to (but not surpass) the German one. As soon as China sends the changdao and arqubusiers cards (the former kills age 3 cav masses and the latte keeps the war wagon mass small), they stabilize very quickly. Sure Germany has a few uhlan, but China has 10 arquebusiers, a monk, a few disciples, and 2-3 batches of old han. A Chinese cav/ arq composition does very well vs Germany (since their cav have a surprisingly good attack vs war wagons). Not to mention, it can be created at least 30 seconds earlier.
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Post by iNcog »

i don't know, if china gets the market upgrades and ages with porc tower, their eco is really insane. they can get away with it against an opposing civ which is going for a semi. porc tower has the advantage of not using map resources as well, while still being quite good.

i think this is a fair match up,
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by Papist »

Germany gets the best villager shipment in the game, as well as free cav to raid a civ which cannot afford to be raided and cannot make decent units until the 3rd age. Theoretically, Germany could go dopp/uhlan in age 2 and China would have no answer to it (a couple disciples and 3 ckn isn't going to hold 5 uhlan and 5 dopps. This MU is really hard on China. It isn't impossible, but I am not sure how balanced it really is.
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Post by iNcog »

that's why china ages for musks :D
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Post by Papist »

incog wrote:that''s why china ages for musks :D
Can China hold until then though? Killing a village knocks them back like a full minute, if not more.
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Post by iNcog »

easily

you need to build villages right next to your TC and to the sides, NOT in front. you place big fat summer palace in front of your TC and you plug holes with a market

set summer palace to bow/pike btw (lol)

then you can pop minutes out when needed, the dopps should go down quickly and the minute-pikes take care of hulans easily. the monk is there to tank hits / snare the enemy. he can take down the village maybe but it's going to cost him
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.

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