China vs France

[_DB_]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/9kdpJkW.jpg[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/njxeumt.jpg[/img]

If you would play china in this MU, must you FF or rush?
Dunno if China can rush france.

How to exactly play this MU as China against France?

[yemshi]

If you would play china in this MU, must you FF or rush??
Dunno if China can rush france.?

How to exactly play this MU as China against France?

FF

[fei123456]

700w 700g semiff may be better.
or 5-10 hussars hurts your eco.

[StarFox_]

if you place buildings well enough you can pure ff but if your build is sloppy its probably best to semi like coup suggested.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ff is always better.

[mnogud]

ff, h2o prefers age3 with tower...not sure which is better

[_DB_]

ff, h2o prefers age3 with tower...not sure which is better

He does make it right so it''s preferable. I want to watch H2O''s china recs against france. Anybody has them?

[MCJim]

FF over semi FF in this case?

[mnogud]

ff, h2o prefers age3 with tower...not sure which is better

He does make it right so its preferable. I want to watch H2Os china recs against france. Anybody has them?

well i dunno if it is preferable... the only reason it works for him is coz he is _H2O... i dunno if any other player would be able to face that pressure as him.... if you see his stream he fights a lot with villagers only losing 1 or 2 in the process... if you can fight with 20 musks and 10 huss using villagers like him then go for it :p the game i am referring to is _H2O vs acergame on tibet

[Papist]

How can you rush against musk/huss with bow/pike? To be honest, it doesn't matter what you do - you're dead no matter what. Musk/huss is very powerful.

[iNcog]

bow pike, on paper, is the counter to musk/huss.

the larger the mass of units, the bigger impact ranged units have on the fight

you'd want xbow/hussar against bow pike


however china is just better off going straight to fortress either way

[Goodspeed]

bow pike, on paper, is the counter to musk/huss.

Nah musk huss is a soft counter to bow pike, this because the huss are tanking a lot of ranged hits and musks do solid damage from the back. Pikes are never gonna get a good hit off if they micro their cav well.

[iNcog]

"on paper"

RI/HI is the answer to HI/Cav

musks kind of break the rule since they have good ranged attack, and xbows are a very mediocre unit, however that rule still applies. why are you hitting cavalry with your xbows when you should be manually targeting musketeers? the pikes just move around to protect the hussars from getting into contact to the bows.

throw in cover mode for pikes and i there's your answer to musk huss.

[Jaeger]

bow pike, on paper, is the counter to musk/huss.

Nah musk huss is a soft counter to bow pike, this because the huss are tanking a lot of ranged hits and musks do solid damage from the back. Pikes are never gonna get a good hit off if they micro their cav well.

But doesnt bow pike win in very small numbers when you are able to efficiantely target all your bows on musk? Like 5 bow 6 pike vs 5 musk 3 huss. I think maybe theoretically if you can micro the bows perfectly then bow pike is better.

[Goodspeed]

"on paper"

RI/HI is the answer to HI/Cav

musks kind of break the rule since they have good ranged attack, and xbows are a very mediocre unit, however that rule still applies. why are you hitting cavalry with your xbows when you should be manually targeting musketeers? the pikes just move around to protect the hussars from getting into contact to the bows.

throw in cover mode for pikes and i there's your answer to musk huss.

Yeah musks are HI in official AoE terms I guess. They aren't really, they are their own unit type. But yeah RI+HI >' HI+cav and yes musks break the rule cause musks aren't really HI. They are a somewhat in between making them a very good unit for (especially early) colonial wars, you need to counter them with your own musks or a 3 unit comp. Everything else just loses including bow pike. Even with perfect cover mode micro a musk huss with mediocre micro would probably still win.

[Jaeger]

"on paper"

RI/HI is the answer to HI/Cav

musks kind of break the rule since they have good ranged attack, and xbows are a very mediocre unit, however that rule still applies. why are you hitting cavalry with your xbows when you should be manually targeting musketeers? the pikes just move around to protect the hussars from getting into contact to the bows.

throw in cover mode for pikes and i there''s your answer to musk huss.

Bow pike still looses to musk huss because you need to hit and run AND target groups of bows on the musks AND micr your pike in and out of musk range AND cover mode them when neccesary. If you attack move witht he bows you will attack the cav. If you can do it perfectly I think bow pike can win, but if you have 40 bows it''s impossible to hit and run with 6 groups of bows at a time.

[Jaeger]

"on paper"

RI/HI is the answer to HI/Cav

musks kind of break the rule since they have good ranged attack, and xbows are a very mediocre unit, however that rule still applies. why are you hitting cavalry with your xbows when you should be manually targeting musketeers? the pikes just move around to protect the hussars from getting into contact to the bows.

throw in cover mode for pikes and i there''s your answer to musk huss.

Yeah musks are HI in official AoE terms I guess. They aren''t really, they are their own unit type. But yeah RI+HI >' HI+cav and yes musks break the rule cause musks aren''t really HI. They are a somewhat in between making them a very good unit for (especially early) colonial wars, you need to counter them with your own musks or a 3 unit comp. Everything else just loses including bow pike. Even with perfect cover mode micro a musk huss with mediocre micro would probably still win.

Don''t 5 bows+6 pike beat 5 musk+3 huss tho? Or maybe 6 bows+5 pike vs 5 musk 3 huss.

[Papist]

As you said incog, bow/pike>musk/huss on paper. But as it turns out, that's the ONLY place it beats it. Pikes have to stay out if range of musket fire, allowing cav to get a little too close for comfort. Even then, when the pikes move forward to defend, they will get hurt by musk fire very badly. This isn't even taking into consideration the fact that the musk/huss combo is much more flexible and mobile than the slow bow/pike combo.

The only way bow/pike can be good against an equal mass is when the bows can bunch up in a corner. It dies to most other things when it is out in the open.

[iNcog]

ok goodspeed, let's test this


either way i'm still mostly right. musketeers are in reality mediocre in terms of fighting at range it just so happens that they can do so without being threatened by cavalry

i'm still not entirely convinced that bow/pike loses to musk hussar as easily as you people are saying. yes, it does require micro, but we're talking assuming that both players are equally competent in terms of micro.

furthermore, replace xbows by an actually good RI unit (skirms, gurhka, longbows) and you find yourself in a perfectly fine position against musk/hussar.

musk/hussar is a bad composition against a fortress composition of RI/anti-cav

that's what i'm arguing

i still believe that a well executed bow/pike does well enough against musk/hussar.

[Papist]

ok goodspeed, let''s test this

Rec plz. I''m curious.

[iNcog]

well he's probably going to dodge

i'm fine testing this against anyone, tbh

we can play a french mirror and test it

not a real game, just starting a deathmatch french mirror and test out different amounts of bow/pike vs musk/huss

[Jaeger]

well he''s probably going to dodge

i''m fine testing this against anyone, tbh

we can play a french mirror and test it

not a real game, just starting a deathmatch french mirror and test out different amounts of bow/pike vs musk/huss

Yes I can test this with you lol and we record, I think bow pike can win if it''s max like 15 unit pop but otherwise musk hus rapes. Add me on ESO Ovi12 I''ll be on in like 7-8 hours from now and also tomorrow the whole day.

[fei123456]

with micro you may defend a hussar raid without losing many vills. but your eco are deadly damaged, and your upgrade time is longer. a 700w 700g semi ff with 1-2 batch of Ming Army can deal with hussars easily, and can reach age 3 at about the same time (you never need to gather your vills on age 3 wonder).
why you always think china semiff is somehow low-eco? yeah china dont have 5 vills/4 cdbs, but they can train vills during trainsition. with all market upgrades and porcelain tower (and semiff with tower is less dangerous than naked ff with tower, ofc) china has a solid eco.

[yemshi]

You get sooooooooooooooo many ups in the market already' it's maybe even good enough without a vill/eco shipment.
700 wood is also a eco card.
maths is NOT my strenght, someone will calculate it out anyway
how many secs do you need to make a 5 vill shipment worth it compared to 700 wood?

[iNcog]

well hes probably going to dodge

im fine testing this against anyone, tbh

we can play a french mirror and test it

not a real game, just starting a deathmatch french mirror and test out different amounts of bow/pike vs musk/huss

Yes I can test this with you lol and we record, I think bow pike can win if its max like 15 unit pop but otherwise musk hus rapes. Add me on ESO Ovi12 Ill be on in like 7-8 hours from now and also tomorrow the whole day.

ill be in bed in that time