[GoodSpeed's 3.0 TAD Guide] Iroquois

[pecelot]

This is a little write-up about the Iroquois civilisation by GoodSpeed from his precious TAD 3.0 Guide from 2014 (EP was non-existent at that time). There were some complaints lately about the lack of guides on our Strategy Wall, therefore we've thought of dividing the big guide for smaller and more accessible parts destined for each civilisation, as people may have just missed them due to a large format of GS's work.
Bear in mind it can be a bit outdated in comparison with today's metagame, though it can still serve as a great basis for many players!
Feel free to comment, discuss and enjoy! All credits, naturally, to @Goodspeed , thanks again!

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Iroquois

Iro are a fun and versatile low eco civ. Their games are usually won early because they lack the capability to boom as well as other civs, but they possess the ability to sabotage any game plan other civs may have had. Frankly, this is the only civ on TAD that I would call overpowered. Iro don't fuck around. They are so far from balanced it’s just not fun playing against them. There isn’t a single reason, either. It’s not that their units are insane (like India) or their boom is too strong (Brits), it’s a combination of overwhelming strengths that make Iro the top civ.

First of all there’s the fast age up plus war hut. Whereas other civs have to choose between a 400w age up and a 500f, or choose between a fast age up or a war hut, Iro gets both resources and a fast age. The war hut, considering it builds on its own, is worth about 300 wood. Imagine how insane France would be for example, if they aged up an entire minute earlier with only 100w less. This gives Iro such a significant edge in the early game, it’s something many civs can hardly come back from.

Then there’s the cav shipments. 4 kanya in colonial is too many. This is worth 400 food and 300 wood, which is about as valuable in villager seconds as a 700 gold shipment. By design, resource shipments should always be worth more than unit shipments, but with Iro’s cav shipments this is not the case. I guess it was a tough choice though, since if they had made it a 3 cav shipment (like they did with Germans) it would be too weak. In fortress, they get 6 kanya which is worth 1050 resources, again as good as crate shipments. Oh, and the toma shipment is great too, that one’s worth 750 resources.

The War chief. If it only had the 15% (yes, 15%) HP buff and not the crackshot it would already be too strong, but as it is now it’s just a matter of “what were you thinking ES?”. And it even used to be 20%!

The unit upgrades. They have 2 overpowered upgrade cards in colonial, being 15% hp to all their infantry and 15% attack to all their infantry. This means that combined with the WC aura, with 2 cards you can have your infantry HP upgraded by 30%, and their attack 15%. Add the war dance and you have yourself an army that is so incredibly cost effective not even Russia or India will beat it in late colonial.

However, Iro do have a weakness. They don’t have access to artillery in fortress (just not having a 2 falc card is already a pretty big deal) but more importantly they lack any way to counter artillery effectively in fortress. If you ever find yourself in fortress with enough time to spare (which will be rare against Iro), take advantage of this and build yourself some cannons.

Even though Iro lack artillery, Iro have the strongest semi-FF in the game. Because why not? They can do a 7-8 min timing with a pretty scary unit mass while ageing up around 9 minutes, with 2 TPs up and 5 vills sent somewhere in early colonial. What’s so good about this is not the speed or the economy, but the timing they hit before ageing up. It will punish most semiFFs and it will punish FFs, it wil even keep a colonial-focused build on its back foot for a while, and meanwhile Iro is ageing up. How can they afford this? It’s mostly because of their shipments. They get a whopping 4 shipments in colonial due to their early TPs and their unit shipments are really strong. As it turns out, they don’t have to make that many units for this timing, all they have to do is send them. The remaining shipments are eco and gold for the age up, and you have yourself a semi-FF. For about the same reasons, Iro’s FF is decent as well.

But despite having great FF builds, Iro still prefer colonial age. With fast pressure giving them free map control, a strong mid colonial mass, an OP explorer and great upgrade cards for late colonial, that is where they are at home. They won’t have to deal with artillery because there isn’t a single civ who can afford to age up against them and still have any chance, except maybe Otto. They won’t lose map control either. Eventually the opposing civ has to face facts and try to push out to secure more resources, and Iro will be happily waiting to smash their army when this happens. Now, it’s not always so easy. There are some match ups (for example Brit and India) where Iro actually get in trouble if their opponent has a large amount of resources in their base to work with. After all, Iro’s eco is nothing special and despite their numerous strengths, Iro can’t really sit back and let Brit or India boom at will. This is where their FF builds become a better option.


The Iroquois build

No matter what you started with crate-wise, always get the early TP up. If you started with an extra wood crate, chop 50 and mine 50 and go early market as well.
(1) 3v

Fast age vs slow age (wise woman) can be a tough choice sometimes. Your main consideration in this is whether you want to age up to fortress or not. A planned FF or semi-FF should always age slowly, and sometimes when you think you might want to age up somewhere in mid colonial, you’d still want to save that fast age for fortress. It’s very awkward to use fast age to colonial and slow to fortress, because Iro really don’t want to be making colonial units on their way to fort. They want forest prowlers and their strong cav shipments asap for a quick early fortress push. Letting their opponent breathe for too long is not something Iro would generally want to do.


The fast age build 70%

If you didn’t get the early market up, skip it for now. Chop for a second TP instead, you should get this up somewhere in early colonial. Don’t do this if you’re planning to rush hard though, because in that case the 2 less units you’ll have might actually make a difference. As for your shipment order, you have a lot of choices. Iro get a bunch of shipments in early colonial, after all.
Note that you’re generally going to want to make only aenna from the WH and use the shipments and/or the big button for tomahawks. This is simply the most efficient way to use your resources.

The following is a good, eco heavy way to play if they walled off and you can’t really push them until later, or if they are also playing a fast civ and will likely have a defence up by the time you reach their town. This build is eco heavy but due to Iro’s insane speed and early abundance of resources it’s not vulnerable to rushes at all.
(2) 5v
(3) 600w (mix stable)
(4) 4 kanya or (4) 6 toma

The following is best if you want to go for a 7 min timing:
(2) 600w
(3) 4 kanya
(4) 6 toma

And for a rush:
(2) 4 kanya
(3) 6 toma
(4) 600w or (4) 7 aenna for continued pressure

Another strong and frequently used way to play after a fast age is to quickly harass them with 4 kanya while setting yourself up for a timing. This is also the best way to play Iro mirrors, as it turned out after a significant amount of test games last year. It’s strong because the 600w arrives at a very convenient time, meaning you won’t have to chop much wood and can focus on a strong food eco.
(2) 4 kanya
(3) 600w
(4) Infantry shipment
Alternatively you can send 5v as your 4th card. In this case you’re obviously not doing a timing but transitioning into an eco build.

Follow up cards in mid to late colonial are the infantry upgrades and potentially spice trade if it gets that far. Note that spice trade can be sent before unit upgrades but only if you’re losing units and your mass is small, making the unit upgrades a lot less valuable. And yes, spice trade is better than 4v. Iro generally gather a lot of food, and since you will be late in the game before getting to send your second eco card, spice trade is generally going to be worth more than 4v. If you want to send another eco card early in the game, go for 4v but I question your decision to send 2 eco cards in early colonial. More often than not this will give your opponent chances.


The wise woman build 30%

For all her wisdom, this woman is still quite slow. You have plenty of time during transition to chop for both a second TP and a market if you didn’t have that already, and your first unit batches will still easily be 5-5-5. This age up is worse for any colonial focused build, but it does give you the option to age up quickly. This is a big deal and not to be underestimated, especially in MUs where your opponent is likely to wall off his entire town and camp there. Depending on how long your opponent is planning to camp, it’s sometimes even good to turn this build into a FI.

The recommended card order in almost all cases is the following. Note how you don’t need 600w early because you have a crazy amount of resources in early colonial.
(2) 4 kanya or (2) 5v if the kanya won’t be useful yet
(3) 5v or (3) 4 kanya
(4) Infantry shipment
(5) 600g (age up) or (5) 600w if you want to stick around in colonial.

Do a timing after your 4th shipment to punish them for ageing up or over booming. This is a perfect demonstration of how OP Iro are, the fact that they can do a strong and relatively fast colonial timing and age up only a minute later with 5v already sent. Most civs have to settle for raids while semi-FFing, Iro can do a full blown colonial push.

Sticking around in colonial is quite viable as well. You still have a good unit shipment and you still have 600w, so you can keep massing and age up later. For some civs, your continued pressure after the timing and a delayed age up is a lot scarier than ageing up early.

If you want to turn this into an FI, simply send 1200 res in fortress and don’t make any units until industrial. Note how 4 light cannons will force any civ to move out of their base, this can be strong against a camping India.

For the FF:
(2) 600g
(3) Fortress shipment
Note that 1200 resources is a very strong fortress shipment.

Of course, this being a slow age up doesn’t mean you have to go for an FF build. You can plan for colonial as well, and simply use the age up resources you get from the wise woman for a stronger 8 min timing. In that case:
(2) 600w (if you want more than 4 cav) or (2) 4 kanya
(3) Unit shipment
(4) Unit shipment
(5) Unit shipment or (5) 600g to age up
Note that the age up is somewhat awkward due to your lack of an economy, but your timing is likely to have crippled your opponent and hopping to fortress because you ran out of strong unit shipments in colonial can be a great way to keep the pressure up. This is definitely not to be underestimated.

[fei123456]

though iro is indeed a lame civ, i don't agree that iro can age up slowly, do a timing push after 7:00 and still age up safely.
if iro age up with wise woman, every opponent will know you're not to rush him without scouting. and with steel traps 700w 4cdb etc, many civs, such as french, can have even more units and 20% better eco at 7:00 then. thus, iro's timing push won't really hurt your opponent, and your aging up becomes risky, as 2200 resources is still a big deal.

[deleted_user0]

Ye he's missing a lot of builds, but this was never an extensive civ guide. It was more of a guide about the state of the game as he saw it at that time

[fei123456]

Ye he's missing a lot of builds, but this was never an extensive civ guide. It was more of a guide about the state of the game as he saw it at that time

so do you have some idea on iro semiff? there're two points:
1. should i age up with wise woman, or fast age up?
wise woman: make your semiff faster. but opponent will know your build without even scouting, and some early pressure may even hurt iro.
fast age up: can daze your opponent. but it's slow, and risky during the 110s.
2. if i do semiff with messenger-wise woman, what kind of unit should i train during transition?
aenna: good at defending, but totally useless in age 3.
toma: can upgrade and use them in age 3, but is weak against musk pressure.

i ask this cause i find it difficult to break a defensive india, if the map doesnt allow a stagecoach boom.
with stagecoach iro just train kanya+aenna 5+5 each batch and win easily. but if i can't, things become a little tough.

[Goodspeed]

though iro is indeed a lame civ, i don't agree that iro can age up slowly, do a timing push after 7:00 and still age up safely.

Have you tried the build? Because they really can.
If your opponent is massing in colonial you should just sit back and age (or stay colonial). The timing is meant to punish age ups or booms.

[fei123456]

Have you tried the build? Because they really can.
If your opponent is massing in colonial you should just sit back and age (or stay colonial). The timing is meant to punish age ups or booms.

french normal 700w 4cdb build can have more units when you try to "punish" him. at the same time his eco will be 20% (or even 30%?) better, and he has fast age up too
mind that i didn't say this is "not available". i mean this is not that strong. semiff iro is still good, but not op anymore.

[pecelot]

Ye he's missing a lot of builds

pls

[Goodspeed]

Have you tried the build? Because they really can.
If your opponent is massing in colonial you should just sit back and age (or stay colonial). The timing is meant to punish age ups or booms.

french normal 700w 4cdb build can have more units when you try to "punish" him. at the same time his eco will be 20% (or even 30%?) better, and he has fast age up too
mind that i didn't say this is "not available". i mean this is not that strong. semiff iro is still good, but not op anymore.

Are you talking about EP? The guide was for RE patch where the semi-FF is definitely OP. I mean, everything Iro does is OP really.

[fei123456]

Have you tried the build? Because they really can.
If your opponent is massing in colonial you should just sit back and age (or stay colonial). The timing is meant to punish age ups or booms.

french normal 700w 4cdb build can have more units when you try to "punish" him. at the same time his eco will be 20% (or even 30%?) better, and he has fast age up too
mind that i didn't say this is "not available". i mean this is not that strong. semiff iro is still good, but not op anymore.

Are you talking about EP? The guide was for RE patch where the semi-FF is definitely OP. I mean, everything Iro does is OP really.

dont agree. i'm quite sure french can have more units when you try to punish him, and better eco, and can age up fast too.
EP nerfed iro colo play quite a lot, but their semiff is not too different, as EP iro will build 1-2 tp during transition too. however, is there anyone play iro in EP?

[Goodspeed]

Show hidden quotes

Have you tried the build? Because they really can.
If your opponent is massing in colonial you should just sit back and age (or stay colonial). The timing is meant to punish age ups or booms.

french normal 700w 4cdb build can have more units when you try to "punish" him. at the same time his eco will be 20% (or even 30%?) better, and he has fast age up too
mind that i didn't say this is "not available". i mean this is not that strong. semiff iro is still good, but not op anymore.

Are you talking about EP? The guide was for RE patch where the semi-FF is definitely OP. I mean, everything Iro does is OP really.

dont agree. i'm quite sure french can have more units when you try to punish him, and better eco, and can age up fast too.

That seems unlikely. A French semi-FF will have less units at 7:00. I don't think I would semi-FF in that MU though.

[fei123456]

That seems unlikely. A French semi-FF will have less units at 7:00. I don't think I would semi-FF in that MU though.

If iro age up at 4:50, why should french be afraid of anything?

[Mameluke]

Are there any screenshots of good Iroquois decks?

[pecelot]

You can always look for finished decks of top players on ESO, as far as I'm concerned, Garja (456) or diarouga used to play them a lot.

[Mameluke]

You can always look for finished decks of top players on ESO, as far as I'm concerned, Garja (456) or diarouga used to play them a lot.

on ESO? where is "ESO"?

[Gendarme]

@Mameluke

[pecelot]

It's in your heart.

Also in AoM.

[Mameluke]

@Mameluke

well no commentary on the decks tho but still helps ty both

[pecelot]

You can draw conclusions yourself if certain cards are in all decks you look at.



From the GoodSpeed's 2010 Guide. Notice it contains shipment changes from the old FP, like musketeer & cassador attack & HP cards in age 2 PogChamp

[Gendarme]

Spice trade... really?

[tedere12]

u get the age 2 units upgrade instead

[tedere12]

also ffs no 600w

[yurashic]

You can draw conclusions yourself if certain cards are in all decks you look at.



From the GoodSpeed's 2010 Guide. Notice it contains shipment changes from the old FP, like musketeer & cassador attack & HP cards in age 2 PogChamp

This deck is bad, you don't need 4 vills and spice trade, it is absolutely necessary to have 600 wood and the 10% upgrade for your units. 1800 res is good but infinite 1500 res is much better. Furrier is useless, it is only 10% since it's a team card for Iro. It is better to have 9 deer, 10% for mills, 20% for plantations or the war chief upgrade instead.

[pecelot]

Had I not posted it, you probably wouldn't have posted your part! It's the FP 2010 edition, and by GS, hence the Spice Trade, presumably. Though some of the decks there are rather OK, can provide a nice starter with some feedback nearby.

[TNT333]

THANKS this helped a lot. But their cannons r really good to counter other cannon and its relatively cheaper than horse artillery though its still troublesome to cointer enemy artillery

[Ashvin]

They have a good range and I personally have had problems dealing with them.