deleted_user wrote:Goodspeed wrote:Yes doing a creative strategy requires more knowledge of the game because you have to make the build order yourself, you can't copy it from better players. Trying this when you don't understand the game too well will almost invariably result in bad builds. This is true in every game.
That there is little innovation right now is a player issue, not one inherent to high level play.
It is in some part a player issue, and in more part a meta, high level play issue. That trickles down because of streams.
At the time of writing I was still somewhat in touch with the game and my opinion was that there were still many unexplored ways to play. I don't know if that's still the case now, but it seems likely.
While I would still say it's mostly a player issue, it's definitely also inherent in high level play, at least in RTS (where mechanics are a large factor) as opposed to "full" thinking games. Top players seem less concerned with finding new ways to play than they are with optimizing existing builds. This makes sense in a game like AoE3 where the meta is somewhat settled, at least compared to a game like SC2 where there are frequent game-changing patches which force people to get creative again. However, I'm fairly confident there's still a lot of room for creativity. I think if AoE3 was more popular, you would see creative players who can also keep up mechanically dominate the game. I think Blackstar is a good example of someone who was creative but also kept up mechanically, explaining his meteoric rise to the top.
At some point good balance necessitates boring play except for I guess the greatest game ever made, Go. That's why chess was good for so long until it wasn't, and engines were invented. There is always a better move to make. Because TPs are so strong they are almost always the better move to make.
I wouldn't say good balance is the thing that leads to "boring play", if we're defining boring play as a stale, settled meta. Rather it's a function of game complexity, popularity and change frequency. Of course, good balance in a game like AoE3 directly (and positively) influences complexity.
The more complex the game, the longer it will take for the meta to settle. Popularity speeds up this process though, because if you have more high level players they will find new ways to play at a faster rate.
In the case of RTS, which will typically (and should) keep being patched throughout their lifetime, patches can "refresh" the meta so that people have new things to explore. So the more patches you make (change frequency), the less stale the meta will be unless your patches are bad. Of course, the significance of your changes also matters.
In games like Chess and Go, there are no changes. So the meta will inevitably settle, as players continue to slowly improve it. Both are very popular games, but we can safely say the meta is fairly stale in Chess whereas innovations in Go are relatively frequent and especially relatively impactful. This is because Go is a more complex game.
Looking at AoE3: It's complex and not popular. So if we change the game frequently enough (EP has tried not to, but I think it should) we will see creativity have more of an impact.
But I don't think AoE3 is in its engine phase yet, but it might be. You tried to usher in this phase yourself, with your build order program.
Given that AoE3
should keep changing through patches, it
should never reach that phase. I hope one day this community comes to understand that the game needs to keep changing, though I'm not holding my breath on that one.
"Players, not plays" is a frequent motto of mine. Because if you are facing Kaiserklein or Raphael you will lose. Aiz is the most exciting and in my opinion greatest aoe player ever, but he seldom reaches RO8 in tournaments. High level "interesting" AoE gameplay has devolved into strictly build orders. There are too many pieces at play for shenanigans.
I'm not sure what your point is with "Players, not plays" but I think you're definitely wrong about high level AoE3 being about executing your build better than the other player, if that was in fact your point. It comes back to my earlier example of Blackstar who I'm pretty sure would be the top player by some distance if he still played today. Currently we just have mostly mechanical players at the top.