Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Again, I used "relatively" for a reason. It was a point specifically based on the comparison between Chess and Go, comparing their complexity and the degree of staleness in their respective metas.
Interesting to see how bad people become at reading comprehension when they perceive negativity towards something they like. "Perceive" in italics for a reason, people.
Interesting to see how bad people become at reading comprehension when they perceive negativity towards something they like. "Perceive" in italics for a reason, people.
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- Howdah
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
I definitely don't think that the meta is stale in chess today, in fact I'd say there has never been an era with a wider variety of openings being played (if we speak of top level of course, at lower level you can play anything you want).Goodspeed wrote:I'm aware. Note my use of the word "relatively". To illustrate the difference: In Go, playing the opening like people did 10 years ago is straight up game-losing at the pro level.Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:I kind of think neither you nor SirCallen follow high level play closely. I would in fact say that the meta has been shifting a lot in the last twenty years. Computers have completely changed the way chess is played at the top level, with many opening that were considered bad being rehabilitated and many moves that would have been considered "too ugly" twenty years ago being played routinely (particularly with pawn play). The reason why top level chess is less interesting to watch than twenty or fifty years ago is that it has become so complex than us mere mortal can not understand anything. And with deep learning chess programs it is even better, players are discovering new way to play old position routinely now.Show hidden quotes
ESOC : came for the game, stayed for the drama.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Note my use of the word "relatively".
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- Howdah
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Well I don't read "relatively stale", I read "fairly stale". Which I don't agree with for reason stated above.
ESOC : came for the game, stayed for the drama.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
And you stopped reading there, huh? The difference is that you're comparing Chess now to Chess earlier whereas I'm comparing it to a different game altogether. You can make claims about the Chess meta being less stale than it was 20 years ago, and I'll make claims about it being a whole lot more stale compared to Go. We don't disagree.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
And still you're the only one (or almost) on this forum to believe that Go is the superior game.Goodspeed wrote:And you stopped reading there, huh? The difference is that you're comparing Chess now to Chess earlier whereas I'm comparing it to a different game altogether. You can make claims about the Chess meta being less stale than it was 20 years ago, and I'll make claims about it being a whole lot more stale compared to Go. We don't disagree.
It's the same about aoe3 actually, you and Zoi want aoe3 to become like Go while we're happier with aoe3 being chess.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
???
1) I'm not talking about which is the superior game. I'm comparing staleness of the meta to illustrate a point about how it relates to complexity.
2) I don't want AoE3 to become more like Go. They're wildly different games. And Zoi certainly doesn't, he doesn't even play Go. I don't know how you made this connection in your head, but I'm interested, so please explain.
3) How the hell is AoE3 Chess?
4) How is your post in any way a reply to the post you quoted?
1) I'm not talking about which is the superior game. I'm comparing staleness of the meta to illustrate a point about how it relates to complexity.
2) I don't want AoE3 to become more like Go. They're wildly different games. And Zoi certainly doesn't, he doesn't even play Go. I don't know how you made this connection in your head, but I'm interested, so please explain.
3) How the hell is AoE3 Chess?
4) How is your post in any way a reply to the post you quoted?
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
1) You're not talking about that right now but you did try prove it multiple time.Goodspeed wrote:???
1) I'm not talking about which is the superior game. I'm comparing staleness of the meta to illustrate a point about how it relates to complexity.
2) I don't want AoE3 to become more like Go. They're wildly different games. And Zoi certainly doesn't, he doesn't even play Go. I don't know how you made this connection in your head, but I'm interested, so please explain.
3) How the hell is AoE3 Chess?
4) How is your post in any way a reply to the post you quoted?
2) You started that comparison lol. Aoe3 should change because else it's stale like chess or w.e.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
I never tried to prove that. Though it's obviously the case, it's subjective and therefore not provable. And if we're not talking about that now, why bring it up? Did it offend you that deeply?[Armag] diarouga wrote:1) You're not talking about that right now but you did try prove it multiple time.
AoE3 should change else it becomes stale period. Not "like Chess". How did you get that from my post?2) You started that comparison lol. Aoe3 should change because else it's stale like chess or w.e.
Do you disagree that RTS games which don't change tend towards a stale meta?
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
It depends on what you mean by stale meta. The build orders slightly change every tournament, and the maps also change the way people play the game.Goodspeed wrote: Do you disagree that RTS games which don't change tend towards a stale meta?
Aoe3 is still aoe3, it's not a new game if that's what you mean by "stale meta".
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
I would define it as a meta that doesn't change, or changes in minor ways at most.[Armag] diarouga wrote:It depends on what you mean by stale meta.Goodspeed wrote: Do you disagree that RTS games which don't change tend towards a stale meta?
Right, but note I said "tend towards". AoE3's meta never really had the time to properly settle. The game is relatively complex and relatively unpopular, so the meta needs more time to settle. It has also changed fairly recently.The build orders slightly change every tournament,
Map changes count as "changing the game".and the maps also change the way people play the game.
Imagine we played on EP7 and on the same maps forever. Would we slowly tend towards a stale meta as time went on?
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
I'm going to state something obvious, but the more you play a game, the more you understand it, and as a result the more it "tends towards a stale meta".Goodspeed wrote: Imagine we played on EP7 and on the same maps forever. Would we slowly tend towards a stale meta as time went on?
So the meta slowly tends towards a stale meta as time goes on, of course.
Slowly is the important word here. Reaching a stale meta would be problematic but we're far from that. Half of the civs aren't figured out at all (if you ask two different players "how should I play this civ", you'll get two different answers for these civs), and even the "stale" civs have different options.
And maps actually change, so the meta changes even more.
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- Howdah
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
In fact I think it depends a lot of the game. As game knowledge progress, it can indeed become quite stale (although "stale meta" and "boring to watch/play" are two different things) as people figure out the right way to play. But increasing knowledge of the game can also mean that you get more precise knowledge of what you can get away with and of the subtlety and diversity of the game, with the number of playable BOs increasing rather than decreasing as meta advance.[Armag] diarouga wrote:I'm going to state something obvious, but the more you play a game, the more you understand it, and as a result the more it "tends towards a stale meta".Goodspeed wrote: Imagine we played on EP7 and on the same maps forever. Would we slowly tend towards a stale meta as time went on?
So the meta slowly tends towards a stale meta as time goes on, of course.
Slowly is the important word here. Reaching a stale meta would be problematic but we're far from that. Half of the civs aren't figured out at all (if you ask two different players "how should I play this civ", you'll get two different answers for these civs), and even the "stale" civs have different options.
And maps actually change, so the meta changes even more.
ESOC : came for the game, stayed for the drama.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Right. So you don't disagree.I'm going to state something obvious, but the more you play a game, the more you understand it, and as a result the more it "tends towards a stale meta". So the meta slowly tends towards a stale meta as time goes on, of course.
We're far from it because we have been changing the game, both with maps and patch changes. If you look at AoE3's history, the meta always becomes stale if the game is not changed for a while. This time is no different, though it will take longer because good balance has helped make the game more complex (a point I mentioned in passing in my first reply to Callen). The more complex, the longer it takes the meta to settle.Slowly is the important word here. Reaching a stale meta would be problematic but we're far from that. Half of the civs aren't figured out at all (if you ask two different players "how should I play this civ", you'll get two different answers for these civs), and even the "stale" civs have different options.
But I disagree with you when you say we're far from a stale meta. I think that's a rather optimistic notion, given the history of the game. Hopefully, it's going to keep getting changed.
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
You base that on nothing though. You can't compare EP with the history of the game because balance and maps are the reason why the game became stale.Goodspeed wrote: But I disagree with you when you say we're far from a stale meta. I think that's a rather optimistic notion, given the history of the game. Hopefully, it's going to keep getting changed.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
If I'm basing my opinion on nothing, then so are you. We're both just speculating and our intuitive senses of where the game is headed apparently disagree.[Armag] diarouga wrote:You base that on nothing though. You can't compare EP with the history of the game because balance and maps are the reason why the game became stale.Goodspeed wrote: But I disagree with you when you say we're far from a stale meta. I think that's a rather optimistic notion, given the history of the game. Hopefully, it's going to keep getting changed.
I'll remind you that it's very typical for people to think balance is good right after a patch, and for that opinion to slowly change the longer we go without changes. Because of our frequent patching and our close monitoring of meta trends by way of polling, this hasn't happened with EP, but if you leave it alone for a year I guarantee it will happen.
All versions of ASFP were initially seen as David Kim reincarnate, but after a while people were abusing shit as much as ever. I specifically remember a tournament on ASFP 1.1a (or maybe it was 1.0 actually) where 90% of the high level games were Iro mirrors. On ASFP 1.2, Brits and Sioux ultimately turned out pretty dominant.
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- Gendarme
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
In terms of perceived balance, there's a pretty big bandwagon effect though. For these patches it's at least as much about psychology as it is about reality.
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
I agree with this. That's why we need to patch to make sure balance is in a good spot. Making 50 changes that don't improve balance (or even make it worse) isn't necessary however.I'll remind you that it's very typical for people to think balance is good right after a patch, and for that opinion to slowly change the longer we go without changes. Because of our frequent patching and our close monitoring of meta trends by way of polling, this hasn't happened with EP, but if you leave it alone for a year I guarantee it will happen.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
I don't think this is possible, especially with 14 unique civs. Even in SC2, where they have only 3 match ups to balance, they don't manage. Eventually, some civs will always end up dominant and some will end up underwhelming.[Armag] diarouga wrote:I agree with this. That's why we need to patch to make sure balance is in a good spot.I'll remind you that it's very typical for people to think balance is good right after a patch, and for that opinion to slowly change the longer we go without changes. Because of our frequent patching and our close monitoring of meta trends by way of polling, this hasn't happened with EP, but if you leave it alone for a year I guarantee it will happen.
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Yes, and then you patch the op/up civs.Goodspeed wrote:I don't think this is possible, especially with 14 unique civs. Even in SC2, where they have only 3 match ups to balance, they don't manage. Eventually, some civs will always end up dominant and some will end up underwhelming.[Armag] diarouga wrote:I agree with this. That's why we need to patch to make sure balance is in a good spot.I'll remind you that it's very typical for people to think balance is good right after a patch, and for that opinion to slowly change the longer we go without changes. Because of our frequent patching and our close monitoring of meta trends by way of polling, this hasn't happened with EP, but if you leave it alone for a year I guarantee it will happen.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
... and repeat
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Yes.Goodspeed wrote:... and repeat
I think you didn't get my point. My point is that you need to make small changes from time to time to make sure that balance is good, but making 50 changes isn't necessary.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
Losing 5PR is mathematically far worse than gaining 5PR is good.deleted_user wrote:1) Loss Aversion
Loss aversion states a person dislikes losing $5 more than they like winning $5.
2) Risk taking
Below a certain reference point (taken as one's current wealth) one tends to be risk-loving, while above it be risk-adverse.
Does this apply to AoE3? Would you rather not lose 5 PR than, say, gain 5 PR? Or for us 50% win rate folks, is AoE3 a negative suns game? Human nature naturally dislikes one loss more than they like one win? And if you are below your average PR, do you take more in-game risks? If you are at a PR record, do you play more conservatively?
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- Gendarme
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Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
I lived some extra years and now even more than ever I think the truth is that competitive games can quickly become a net negative experience to me. This is what makes single player games so great; they managed to create an experience where you have fun and don't have to deal with the frustration of losing. You sacrifise some satisfaction, but there are many games where there is plenty of satisfaction to be had from winning in them.
Re: Behavioral Economics and AoE3
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