Dolan wrote:You should be, or you'd look so weird next to me.
I don't have a Tintin haircut and don't laugh hysterically over random word salads.
Hey, the word salads were funny.
Dolan wrote:You should be, or you'd look so weird next to me.
I don't have a Tintin haircut and don't laugh hysterically over random word salads.
Dolan wrote:You should be, or you'd look so weird next to me.
I don't have a Tintin haircut and don't laugh hysterically over random word salads.
Dolan wrote:You should be, or you'd look so weird next to me.
I don't have a Tintin haircut and don't laugh hysterically over random word salads.
rsy wrote:Like I get that it's a touchy subject but why do we have to get personal talking about haircuts and shit
gibson wrote:@DolanCould be, but the burden of proof is on the one making such extraordinary claims, such as that culture trumps nature and can turn an average female into someone who is more aggressive than an average male. The correlation that males are more aggressive than females pretty much holds in most of the animal kingdom, with maybe a few exceptions. It surely holds in most mammals, which humans are part of.
You missed the point. Im saying you don't know if people act the way they do because of their sex or because of the way they've been raised. You test someone who's 20 years old how do you know the results are based off of whether or not their gonads are producing T or E, or because of 20 years of cultural influence. You're assuming that its because of their sex and saying that I have to prove its not, which makes no sense. Its a huge jump from "Baby girls are more likely to look at faces than baby boys" to really anything.
Again, one example doesn't prove anything, but I'm of the mindset that you shouldn't force a child into any sort of gender role. I'm fairly certain the reason why he was depressed and suicidal and committed suicide wasn't because he was forced to wear dresses and play with dolls, but rather because of the hormone therapy and other terrible things they forced him and his brother to do(which you conveniently left out). For example, " Money forced the twins to rehearse sexual acts involving "thrusting movements", with David playing the bottom role. Reimer said that, as a child, he had to get "down on all fours" with his brother, Brian Reimer, "up behind his butt" with "his crotch against" his "buttocks". Reimer said that Money forced David, in another sexual position, to have his "legs spread" with Brian on top. Reimer said that Money also forced the children to take their "clothes off" and engage in "genital inspections". On "at least one occasion", Reimer said that Money took a photograph of the two children doing these activities. Money's rationale for these various treatments was his belief that "childhood 'sexual rehearsal play'" was important for a "healthy adult gender identity" ". Who knows what other fucked up things they were forced to do. We'll never know for sure, but it seems much more likely that those things as well as potential genetic issues(his brother was a diagnosed schizophrenic) caused him to live a terrible in miserable life rather than the dolls and the dresses, but who know.
rsy wrote:Like I get that it's a touchy subject but why do we have to get personal talking about haircuts and shit
How is that difference during the first few months after birth the result of anything cultural, norms, expectations, or anything "constructed"? It's a difference between 10 to 25 ng/dL (females) and 70 to 345 ng/dL (males). The ranges are between 7 up to 10 times larger in males, even after a few months of life. And this is just circulating T levels. But there's also T levels that exposed the brain in the mother's womb and those are also highly sexually dimorphic.Normal testosterone levels in males vary markedly with age. For the first few months after birth, levels range from approximately 70 to 345 ng/dL, then drop to less than 10 ng/dL until age 8 to 10, as measured at Quest Diagnostics laboratories. With the onset of puberty, levels rise gradually through the teen years to as high as 1,000 ng/dL. Normal adult values range from 250 to 1,100 ng/dL, with an individual’s testosterone level dropping slowly within this range beginning sometime after age 30. Different laboratories may have slightly different normal values depending on the test method used.
Testosterone levels in females show a similar but more subdued pattern of age-related changes. Levels are highest the first few months after birth, ranging from approximately 10 to 25 ng/dL. Testosterone then drops to less than 20 ng/dL until the onset of puberty, at which time the hormone increases again to as high as 40 ng/dL. The level then stabilizes as an adult at between 2 and 45 ng/dL.
Dolan wrote:I never said that cultural norms don't shape how different sexes express their nature. Of course they do and some cultural norms can be crazier than others.
But still, what could cultural norms do to mold these biological facts in any direction?
Steroids influence and control how the brain gets formed and how it works in both infants and adults, right? Can you accept this argument that points to a basic and fundamental sexual difference that controls so many behaviours and internal states? Because steroids are involved in so many things that orchestrate human physiology, from stress response, sexual function, menstruation, emotional regulation, aggression, physical effort etc etc. You can't call these differences culturally induced, especially when there's evidence that such differences are inborn.
Let's see what a random health site says about normal T levels in both sexes (information based on some textbook references):How is that difference during the first few months after birth the result of anything cultural, norms, expectations, or anything "constructed"? It's a difference between 10 to 25 ng/dL (females) and 70 to 345 ng/dL (males). The ranges are between 7 up to 10 times larger in males, even after a few months of life. And this is just circulating T levels. But there's also T levels that exposed the brain in the mother's womb and those are also highly sexually dimorphic.Normal testosterone levels in males vary markedly with age. For the first few months after birth, levels range from approximately 70 to 345 ng/dL, then drop to less than 10 ng/dL until age 8 to 10, as measured at Quest Diagnostics laboratories. With the onset of puberty, levels rise gradually through the teen years to as high as 1,000 ng/dL. Normal adult values range from 250 to 1,100 ng/dL, with an individual’s testosterone level dropping slowly within this range beginning sometime after age 30. Different laboratories may have slightly different normal values depending on the test method used.
Testosterone levels in females show a similar but more subdued pattern of age-related changes. Levels are highest the first few months after birth, ranging from approximately 10 to 25 ng/dL. Testosterone then drops to less than 20 ng/dL until the onset of puberty, at which time the hormone increases again to as high as 40 ng/dL. The level then stabilizes as an adult at between 2 and 45 ng/dL.
In case anyone is losing the context and thinks this debate has strayed too far, let me help you out. It's about bullying and how men and women have a different stress response, different levels of empathy and how this is underpinned by biological differences. Yeah, it's no longer about just Garja, it's about all sorts of things that may cause bullying and different responses to bullying, if you like.
kami_ryu wrote:Empathy should be the first step. There is none here.
I've discussed sexism at length with people who know what they're talking about.
umeu wrote:No one is disputing that there are differences either. But the conclusions you draw from the science you present are your own, they're not the conclusions of the tests. Yes, there is a difference in testosterone levels, and both men and women need testosterone to regulate their chemical household (interestingly enough, taking the pill chemically castrates women so to speak, as it shuts down their natural testosterone production and amps up estrogen to unnatural levels. Which is most definitely a form of culture changing biology.) Men and women both need estrogen as well. And while we somewhat understand the importance of these chemicals we don't yet totally understand their effect or what the differences in levels really mean and if you can, for ecample, draw a causal line between for example testosteron and aggression. Just showing that there are differences doesnt show what those differences amount to or affect.
Dolan wrote:umeu wrote:No one is disputing that there are differences either. But the conclusions you draw from the science you present are your own, they're not the conclusions of the tests. Yes, there is a difference in testosterone levels, and both men and women need testosterone to regulate their chemical household (interestingly enough, taking the pill chemically castrates women so to speak, as it shuts down their natural testosterone production and amps up estrogen to unnatural levels. Which is most definitely a form of culture changing biology.) Men and women both need estrogen as well. And while we somewhat understand the importance of these chemicals we don't yet totally understand their effect or what the differences in levels really mean and if you can, for ecample, draw a causal line between for example testosteron and aggression. Just showing that there are differences doesnt show what those differences amount to or affect.
I don't draw any conclusions, conclusions are open to interpretations. What is clear is that we see some outcomes, some behaviours, right? And these behaviours tend to be very different between sexes. And we see these correlations and a whole body of research which painstakingly builds the case for biological determinism, at least to a significant extent.
The best test case that showcases the systemic effect of hormones is trannies. They take hormone blockers to inhibit their secondary sexual characteristics (pilosity, deep voice) and supplement opposite-sex hormones to help them grow missing secondary sexual features (breasts, pear-shaped fat distribution, etc). If hormones didn't play such an overarching role, why do you think trannies would even take them? They could just, you know, turn into the other sex by socially constructing themselves some boobs.
japanesegeneral wrote:Vicky doing the Lina. Thats gotta be fun.
JaZzer_2401 wrote:japanesegeneral wrote:Vicky doing the Lina. Thats gotta be fun.
What does this suppose to mean?
Dolan wrote:rsy wrote:Like I get that it's a touchy subject but why do we have to get personal talking about haircuts and shit
That's true and I rarely resort to personal attacks, but that's because he used a psychological trick, he tried to make me look as if I'm some kind of socially undesirable guy. That's why he said "I'm glad you didn't come at the LAN". That's what he was trying to imply, which is just a sneaky kind of personal attack. Humans can be so subtle at this sort of things. Such as by using this "wolf pack" argument: I'm part of the pack (I was at the LAN event), you're not, so my buddies will support me, which makes you weird.
But it won't work on me, because I'm no regular Joe. I can read this sort of tricks.
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