bullying

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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: bullying

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

BrookG wrote:It might have been some sort of a joke, due to his online stubbornness on game related matters. I will reiterate here that English isn't his native language, neither the native of many of us. Even that slightest misuse can lead to misunderstandings and internet is fast to judge. Yet the love and appreciation we saw in the LAN was genuine and neither forced nor with intend to humiliate. We are overanalysing the issue, in my humble opinion.


Leave the over analysing stuff for me and my threads!
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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Re: bullying

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Basically, the whole "Garja is a god" thing started out as an ironic thing.
I, for one, didn't know this and assumed that the intentions behind the "big G", "Garja god", etc were because of the work that he has put into this game.

I would argue it's just a mix of everything at this point. Garja is a God to all, it doesn't matter whether you're a false believer, whether you worship Him for His map-making skills, gameplay, or guide-making.

XeeleeFlower wrote:I'm not sure what he really thinks of it all

From what I have personally heard Garja say, he seems totally fine with it. This thread was actually brought up just after you left the Travelodge last day.
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Netherlands edeholland
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Re: bullying

Post by edeholland »

EAGLEMUT wrote:From what I have personally heard Garja say, he seems totally fine with it. This thread was actually brought up just after you left the Travelodge last day.
Was wondering when someone would bring up this conversation.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: bullying

Post by Goodspeed »

It shouldn't be up to Garja to set boundaries on how much the collective community gets to make fun of him. Again, maybe instead of treating him like a living meme and hiding behind "well he never said not to" we should treat him with the respect he deserves. That way we don't have to ask questions like this.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: bullying

Post by Dolan »

umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:People can like the same thing for different reasons. Inner experience of that same thing can be so different from person to person, whether or not they share the same culture, sex or some other category.
I would even say it's not the same for any 2 persons in the world. Which is why I think it's not that relevant to make such selections by culture or sex in many cases.
Except that it is. There are so many things at which men and women differ substantially. Substantially as in the binary difference between 1 and 0. Here's an example of a paper which summarises some of the findings on empathy differences: https://www.academia.edu/8530127/Empath ... d_behavior
Really just run a search on "sexual dimorphism in humans", because I think anything I will say, any evidence I will bring you will just dismiss and say it's not significant. It's almost as if sex is just an accident of biology, in your view, it plays almost no role whatsoever. We just happened to get it by chance. So frankly, I don't know if you have such beliefs because your political beliefs trump any empirical evidence you're presented with or if you simply don't understand the significance of this research. It's possible that since I've read research for years, I'm more familiar with how significant even "small differences" can be, in the bigger scheme of things. Or maybe your political worldview couldn't cope with the empirical reality or significance of these facts, no idea.

Yes, like children, adults too share traits, in fact, the similarities are just as numerous, if not more numerous than the differences. And the differences where they exist are relatively small. The lens people filter it through is different per person, per family, per village/city, per region, per country, again changed by religion, sex, age, physical ability, intelligence etc. There are so many factors that you can't just boil it down to 2. The lens of people in North France is probably closer to that of people in South belgium than it is to that of people in South France, yet you would say they're both French so they have same lens. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Then why do you think adults are legally responsible while kids aren't? Jeez, if kids and adults are so similar then they should be equally legally responsible. But no, let's just make any difference as insignificant as possible, to the point that we're all wondering why do we even have different legal status. Not to mention sexual status, since kids who haven't gone through puberty are simply missing that hormonal activation phase that makes adults adults. Yeah, just a little small insignificant detail that has no bearing whatsoever on things. We're all THE SAME, men and women, dogs and worms, kids and adults, it's all one giant phylogenetic kumbaya on this planet.

I was referring to people who are fluent in more than just their native language. Fluency in a foreign language is hard to achieve, it takes certain personality traits and a lot of time investment and motivation. I doubt that most people can be fluent in two languages. It's just beyond any realistic expectation for average intelligence and training.
Most people only have one native language. The languages they know are languages of adjacent tribes or countries. Fluency is a range anyway, and is not used to mean the same as mastery of a language. Many people speak a language other than their native tongue well enough to communicate about complicated things with people that speak that language. For example if you look at the CEFR, b1 would be sufficient. Native speakers are c1-c2. If you look at IELTS, then 7 is sufficient, while most native speakers wouldn't even get ielts 9. Obviously you have to keep using the language in order to not lose the skill, but that's something different.

Most people do not know 2 languages, period. I lived in a few countries until now and most people in every country I've been to don't know any other language besides their own native one. Provide evidence to the contrary if you have it. Knowing a few words doesn't quite qualify someone as a speaker of another language. You need some basic level of fluency to actually be able to converse meaningfully with someone from another culture. And you also need to actively seek to communicate with someone from another country or culture. And that's just not the case for the huge majority of people from each country and culture. Their everyday life simply doesn't include contact with foreigners and regular communication in another language with them.
And yes I wouldn't consider regional, related cultures as part of a multicultural setting.

That's obviously convenient, when you disregard difference between regional cultures just because they're not big enough in your point of view. Plenty of countries in for example Africa, Asia and South America have different cultures within one border. Just look at India, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Nigeria, Mali, Mauretania, Brazil, China. But also France, Spain and Turkey. You might not be able to tell the difference, but they would disagree. Sometimes they live peacefully, sometimes not.

It's not really the same. I would say that multiculturalism in the modern sense is always an artificial product of globalisation. I would call multicultural a country in which the majority of people originate in completely different cultural areas, cultures that are not directly related. Not China or Russia. Cultures that lived in proximity don't quite form a multicultural setting. Not only because they influenced each other and may be partially related but because they had centuries at their disposal to get used to their proximity, so they either solved the issue of vicinity by indifference or amplified it politically into a conflict. But there's nothing in such a neighbouring setting that was created by globalism, like in a multicultural society such as the USA.

Well, there is research that disagrees with your experience. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4976796/
If something so basic and fundamental as pain experience can make people from two completely different cultures have markedly different emotional/empathising experiences, then how could this be the result of my own stereotypes?
Maybe I missed it, but nothing in that article says anything about openness, trust and honesty. So it's definitely your stereotype of east asia. also the differences aren't so markedly different, it seems like they're actually quite small. The conclusion also says that it's in line with some research, yet contradicts others, aka, we still don't know anything. The finding that people empathize about equally with the ingroup as they do with the outgroup and are reasonably adept at recognizing pain in other humans even from different cultures is way more interesting in my opinion. Not so different after all.

It was in the context of discussing differences in empathy and other emotional reactions that I brought up this paper. The study was about the emotional reaction to pain, which is very relevant to the subject of empathy.

I don't dispute that cultural values and upbringing can affect a persons cognitive response. It's obvious that it can. In ww1 veterans from India had certain different ways of dealing with PTSD than English soldiers. In such a case it's relevant to an extent to understand that patient's culture in order to treat the patient. But if you had raised that same indian man in britain from the start, with a british family, he would respond like the british soldier. not like the indian one. Culture isn't rigid and static, people adapt, acquire and let go of things. A person raised for the first 20 years in culture A, who then lives for the next 40 years in culture B will mix those two cultures into his identity. And you can't know what that person acquired or dropped, so when you see that person and go oh, he's from culture A (or culture A+B), that will tell you pretty much nothing about that person unless you get know that person better and also know something about that culture.

I think I made one long post on this subject, when I quoted the papers on how Asians and Western Europeans tend to process geometrical shapes differently. The difference also seems to have been at least partially inborn, as it was also reflected in gaze patterns in newborns, iirc.
So in most contexts, the above doesn't matter. If you hire someone to scoop ice cream, it really doesn't matter much if you know that person has .1 higher perceived pain rate for a needle entering the palm. All that matters is if that person can scoop ice cream. Knowing what someone's culture is doesn't matter when you play aoe3 with them. The reason why it doesn't matter is because it doesn't tell you much beyond generalisations, which as we have already agreed, won't necessarily tell you anything about the individual. I'm not saying it doesn't affect anyone's life, but fixating on the culture and gender instead of on the person is the wrong approach.

Of course it matters. If you never noticed any difference between players from Turkey and players from the UK, well, I'm sorry, maybe you don't have a trained eye in psychological phenomena. I surely notice lots of differences in communication styles, in attitude to hardship, etc. So yeah, this will be reflected in how they do the same job too. There's a reason why British farmers hired Romanians until now and will have to switch to Ukrainians or Russians after Brexit. It's not just because it's a low-paid job, because there surely are lots of low-income people in the UK too. It's also because that spirit of putting up with physical labour and hardship is kinda missing in Britain and still found in Eastern Europe. It's not by accident that most plumber jobs are also taken by Polish people. It's not like Poland had some kind of special connection with plumbing, it's because it's a hard physical job that requires physical and mental resilience to hardship and young people in Western Europe have grown up with a much different mentality, they see such jobs are unworthy and demeaning, they'd rather work in the services sector, earn a lot more and focus on saving the planet from the menace of climate change.
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Re: bullying

Post by deleted_user0 »

Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:People can like the same thing for different reasons. Inner experience of that same thing can be so different from person to person, whether or not they share the same culture, sex or some other category.
I would even say it's not the same for any 2 persons in the world. Which is why I think it's not that relevant to make such selections by culture or sex in many cases.
Except that it is. There are so many things at which men and women differ substantially. Substantially as in the binary difference between 1 and 0. Here's an example of a paper which summarises some of the findings on empathy differences: https://www.academia.edu/8530127/Empath ... d_behavior
Really just run a search on "sexual dimorphism in humans", because I think anything I will say, any evidence I will bring you will just dismiss and say it's not significant. It's almost as if sex is just an accident of biology, in your view, it plays almost no role whatsoever. We just happened to get it by chance. So frankly, I don't know if you have such beliefs because your political beliefs trump any empirical evidence you're presented with or if you simply don't understand the significance of this research. It's possible that since I've read research for years, I'm more familiar with how significant even "small differences" can be, in the bigger scheme of things. Or maybe your political worldview couldn't cope with the empirical reality or significance of these facts, no idea.

Yes, like children, adults too share traits, in fact, the similarities are just as numerous, if not more numerous than the differences. And the differences where they exist are relatively small. The lens people filter it through is different per person, per family, per village/city, per region, per country, again changed by religion, sex, age, physical ability, intelligence etc. There are so many factors that you can't just boil it down to 2. The lens of people in North France is probably closer to that of people in South belgium than it is to that of people in South France, yet you would say they're both French so they have same lens. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Then why do you think adults are legally responsible while kids aren't? Jeez, if kids and adults are so similar then they should be equally legally responsible. But no, let's just make any difference as insignificant as possible, to the point that we're all wondering why do we even have different legal status. Not to mention sexual status, since kids who haven't gone through puberty are simply missing that hormonal activation phase that makes adults adults. Yeah, just a little small insignificant detail that has no bearing whatsoever on things. We're all THE SAME, men and women, dogs and worms, kids and adults, it's all one giant phylogenetic kumbaya on this planet.

I was referring to people who are fluent in more than just their native language. Fluency in a foreign language is hard to achieve, it takes certain personality traits and a lot of time investment and motivation. I doubt that most people can be fluent in two languages. It's just beyond any realistic expectation for average intelligence and training.
Most people only have one native language. The languages they know are languages of adjacent tribes or countries. Fluency is a range anyway, and is not used to mean the same as mastery of a language. Many people speak a language other than their native tongue well enough to communicate about complicated things with people that speak that language. For example if you look at the CEFR, b1 would be sufficient. Native speakers are c1-c2. If you look at IELTS, then 7 is sufficient, while most native speakers wouldn't even get ielts 9. Obviously you have to keep using the language in order to not lose the skill, but that's something different.

Most people do not know 2 languages, period. I lived in a few countries until now and most people in every country I've been to don't know any other language besides their own native one. Provide evidence to the contrary if you have it. Knowing a few words doesn't quite qualify someone as a speaker of another language. You need some basic level of fluency to actually be able to converse meaningfully with someone from another culture. And that's just not the case for the huge majority of people from each country and culture.
And yes I wouldn't consider regional, related cultures as part of a multicultural setting.

That's obviously convenient, when you disregard difference between regional cultures just because they're not big enough in your point of view. Plenty of countries in for example Africa, Asia and South America have different cultures within one border. Just look at India, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Nigeria, Mali, Mauretania, Brazil, China. But also France, Spain and Turkey. You might not be able to tell the difference, but they would disagree. Sometimes they live peacefully, sometimes not.

It's not really the same. I would say that multiculturalism in the modern sense is always an artificial product of globalisation. I would call multicultural a country in which the majority of people originate in completely different cultural areas, cultures that are not directly related. Not China or Russia. Cultures that lived in proximity don't quite form a multicultural setting. Not only because they influenced each other and may be partially related but because they had centuries at their disposal to get used to their proximity, so they either solved the issue of vicinity by indifference or amplified it politically into a conflict. But there's nothing in such a neighbouring setting that was created by globalism, like in a multicultural society such as the USA.

Well, there is research that disagrees with your experience. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4976796/
If something so basic and fundamental as pain experience can make people from two completely different cultures have markedly different emotional/empathising experiences, then how could this be the result of my own stereotypes?
Maybe I missed it, but nothing in that article says anything about openness, trust and honesty. So it's definitely your stereotype of east asia. also the differences aren't so markedly different, it seems like they're actually quite small. The conclusion also says that it's in line with some research, yet contradicts others, aka, we still don't know anything. The finding that people empathize about equally with the ingroup as they do with the outgroup and are reasonably adept at recognizing pain in other humans even from different cultures is way more interesting in my opinion. Not so different after all.

It was in the context of discussing differences in empathy and other emotional reactions that I brought up this paper. The study was about the emotional reaction to pain, which is very relevant to the subject of empathy.

I don't dispute that cultural values and upbringing can affect a persons cognitive response. It's obvious that it can. In ww1 veterans from India had certain different ways of dealing with PTSD than English soldiers. In such a case it's relevant to an extent to understand that patient's culture in order to treat the patient. But if you had raised that same indian man in britain from the start, with a british family, he would respond like the british soldier. not like the indian one. Culture isn't rigid and static, people adapt, acquire and let go of things. A person raised for the first 20 years in culture A, who then lives for the next 40 years in culture B will mix those two cultures into his identity. And you can't know what that person acquired or dropped, so when you see that person and go oh, he's from culture A (or culture A+B), that will tell you pretty much nothing about that person unless you get know that person better and also know something about that culture.

I think I made one long post on this subject, when I quoted the papers on how Asians and Western Europeans tend to process geometrical shapes differently. The difference also seems to have been at least partially inborn, as it was also reflected in gaze patterns in newborns, iirc.
So in most contexts, the above doesn't matter. If you hire someone to scoop ice cream, it really doesn't matter much if you know that person has .1 higher perceived pain rate for a needle entering the palm. All that matters is if that person can scoop ice cream. Knowing what someone's culture is doesn't matter when you play aoe3 with them. The reason why it doesn't matter is because it doesn't tell you much beyond generalisations, which as we have already agreed, won't necessarily tell you anything about the individual. I'm not saying it doesn't affect anyone's life, but fixating on the culture and gender instead of on the person is the wrong approach.

Of it matters. If you never noticed any difference between players from Turkey and players from the UK, well, I'm sorry, maybe you don't have a trained eye in psychological phenomena. I surely notice lots of differences in communication styles, in attitude to hardship, etc. So yeah, this will be reflected in how they do the same job too. There's a reason why British farmers hired Romanians until now and will have to switch to Ukrainians or Russians after Brexit. It's not just because it's a low-paid job, because there surely are lots of low-income people in the UK too. It's also because that spirit of putting up with physical labour and hardship is kinda missing in Britain and still found in Eastern Europe. It's not by accident that most plumber jobs are also taken by Polish people. It's not like Poland had some kind of special connection with plumbing, it's because it's a hard physical job that requires physical and mental resilience to hardship and young people in Western Europe have grown up with a much different mentality, they see such jobs are unworthy and demeaning, they'd rather work in the services sector, earn a lot more and focus on saving the planet from the menace of climate change.


1) you misread what I said. I didnt say kids and adults are the same. You said kids share traits. I said adults also share traits. Read. Ty.

2) The majority of people in the world do speak more languages. Just google it. Over 50% of the world's population speak more than 1 language. Just google it. Or leave the fucking house.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/What_ ... _the_world
http://ilanguages.org/bilingual.php
https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/bl ... ept-secret

3) Don't pretend you are a psychologist because you took 1 year of psychology classes lol, frankly it makes you look pathetic. You recite outdated or pointless research which doesn't show any conclusive evidence towards anything and you propagate a weird theory that frankly seems to make sense to nobody but yourself. Maybe take a few years to think about and write a book, perhaps if it makes sense, people will publish it and I'll read it ;) until then, stop wasting our time. ty.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: bullying

Post by Dolan »

Rofl :lol:
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Re: bullying

Post by Riotcoke »

Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:People can like the same thing for different reasons. Inner experience of that same thing can be so different from person to person, whether or not they share the same culture, sex or some other category.
I would even say it's not the same for any 2 persons in the world. Which is why I think it's not that relevant to make such selections by culture or sex in many cases.
Except that it is. There are so many things at which men and women differ substantially. Substantially as in the binary difference between 1 and 0. Here's an example of a paper which summarises some of the findings on empathy differences: https://www.academia.edu/8530127/Empath ... d_behavior
Really just run a search on "sexual dimorphism in humans", because I think anything I will say, any evidence I will bring you will just dismiss and say it's not significant. It's almost as if sex is just an accident of biology, in your view, it plays almost no role whatsoever. We just happened to get it by chance. So frankly, I don't know if you have such beliefs because your political beliefs trump any empirical evidence you're presented with or if you simply don't understand the significance of this research. It's possible that since I've read research for years, I'm more familiar with how significant even "small differences" can be, in the bigger scheme of things. Or maybe your political worldview couldn't cope with the empirical reality or significance of these facts, no idea.

Yes, like children, adults too share traits, in fact, the similarities are just as numerous, if not more numerous than the differences. And the differences where they exist are relatively small. The lens people filter it through is different per person, per family, per village/city, per region, per country, again changed by religion, sex, age, physical ability, intelligence etc. There are so many factors that you can't just boil it down to 2. The lens of people in North France is probably closer to that of people in South belgium than it is to that of people in South France, yet you would say they're both French so they have same lens. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Then why do you think adults are legally responsible while kids aren't? Jeez, if kids and adults are so similar then they should be equally legally responsible. But no, let's just make any difference as insignificant as possible, to the point that we're all wondering why do we even have different legal status. Not to mention sexual status, since kids who haven't gone through puberty are simply missing that hormonal activation phase that makes adults adults. Yeah, just a little small insignificant detail that has no bearing whatsoever on things. We're all THE SAME, men and women, dogs and worms, kids and adults, it's all one giant phylogenetic kumbaya on this planet.

I was referring to people who are fluent in more than just their native language. Fluency in a foreign language is hard to achieve, it takes certain personality traits and a lot of time investment and motivation. I doubt that most people can be fluent in two languages. It's just beyond any realistic expectation for average intelligence and training.
Most people only have one native language. The languages they know are languages of adjacent tribes or countries. Fluency is a range anyway, and is not used to mean the same as mastery of a language. Many people speak a language other than their native tongue well enough to communicate about complicated things with people that speak that language. For example if you look at the CEFR, b1 would be sufficient. Native speakers are c1-c2. If you look at IELTS, then 7 is sufficient, while most native speakers wouldn't even get ielts 9. Obviously you have to keep using the language in order to not lose the skill, but that's something different.

Most people do not know 2 languages, period. I lived in a few countries until now and most people in every country I've been to don't know any other language besides their own native one. Provide evidence to the contrary if you have it. Knowing a few words doesn't quite qualify someone as a speaker of another language. You need some basic level of fluency to actually be able to converse meaningfully with someone from another culture. And you also need to actively seek to communicate with someone from another country or culture. And that's just not the case for the huge majority of people from each country and culture. Their everyday life simply doesn't include contact with foreigners and regular communication in another language with them.
And yes I wouldn't consider regional, related cultures as part of a multicultural setting.

That's obviously convenient, when you disregard difference between regional cultures just because they're not big enough in your point of view. Plenty of countries in for example Africa, Asia and South America have different cultures within one border. Just look at India, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Nigeria, Mali, Mauretania, Brazil, China. But also France, Spain and Turkey. You might not be able to tell the difference, but they would disagree. Sometimes they live peacefully, sometimes not.

It's not really the same. I would say that multiculturalism in the modern sense is always an artificial product of globalisation. I would call multicultural a country in which the majority of people originate in completely different cultural areas, cultures that are not directly related. Not China or Russia. Cultures that lived in proximity don't quite form a multicultural setting. Not only because they influenced each other and may be partially related but because they had centuries at their disposal to get used to their proximity, so they either solved the issue of vicinity by indifference or amplified it politically into a conflict. But there's nothing in such a neighbouring setting that was created by globalism, like in a multicultural society such as the USA.

Well, there is research that disagrees with your experience. For example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4976796/
If something so basic and fundamental as pain experience can make people from two completely different cultures have markedly different emotional/empathising experiences, then how could this be the result of my own stereotypes?
Maybe I missed it, but nothing in that article says anything about openness, trust and honesty. So it's definitely your stereotype of east asia. also the differences aren't so markedly different, it seems like they're actually quite small. The conclusion also says that it's in line with some research, yet contradicts others, aka, we still don't know anything. The finding that people empathize about equally with the ingroup as they do with the outgroup and are reasonably adept at recognizing pain in other humans even from different cultures is way more interesting in my opinion. Not so different after all.

It was in the context of discussing differences in empathy and other emotional reactions that I brought up this paper. The study was about the emotional reaction to pain, which is very relevant to the subject of empathy.

I don't dispute that cultural values and upbringing can affect a persons cognitive response. It's obvious that it can. In ww1 veterans from India had certain different ways of dealing with PTSD than English soldiers. In such a case it's relevant to an extent to understand that patient's culture in order to treat the patient. But if you had raised that same indian man in britain from the start, with a british family, he would respond like the british soldier. not like the indian one. Culture isn't rigid and static, people adapt, acquire and let go of things. A person raised for the first 20 years in culture A, who then lives for the next 40 years in culture B will mix those two cultures into his identity. And you can't know what that person acquired or dropped, so when you see that person and go oh, he's from culture A (or culture A+B), that will tell you pretty much nothing about that person unless you get know that person better and also know something about that culture.

I think I made one long post on this subject, when I quoted the papers on how Asians and Western Europeans tend to process geometrical shapes differently. The difference also seems to have been at least partially inborn, as it was also reflected in gaze patterns in newborns, iirc.
So in most contexts, the above doesn't matter. If you hire someone to scoop ice cream, it really doesn't matter much if you know that person has .1 higher perceived pain rate for a needle entering the palm. All that matters is if that person can scoop ice cream. Knowing what someone's culture is doesn't matter when you play aoe3 with them. The reason why it doesn't matter is because it doesn't tell you much beyond generalisations, which as we have already agreed, won't necessarily tell you anything about the individual. I'm not saying it doesn't affect anyone's life, but fixating on the culture and gender instead of on the person is the wrong approach.

Of course it matters. If you never noticed any difference between players from Turkey and players from the UK, well, I'm sorry, maybe you don't have a trained eye in psychological phenomena. I surely notice lots of differences in communication styles, in attitude to hardship, etc. So yeah, this will be reflected in how they do the same job too. There's a reason why British farmers hired Romanians until now and will have to switch to Ukrainians or Russians after Brexit. It's not just because it's a low-paid job, because there surely are lots of low-income people in the UK too. It's also because that spirit of putting up with physical labour and hardship is kinda missing in Britain and still found in Eastern Europe. It's not by accident that most plumber jobs are also taken by Polish people. It's not like Poland had some kind of special connection with plumbing, it's because it's a hard physical job that requires physical and mental resilience to hardship and young people in Western Europe have grown up with a much different mentality, they see such jobs are unworthy and demeaning, they'd rather work in the services sector, earn a lot more and focus on saving the planet from the menace of climate change.

In regards to your plumbing answer, it's not that British people don't want to be plumbers it's that eastern Europeans price them out with hilariously low costs for jobs. For example the average wage for a bricklayer in the UK is around ÂŁ25 an hour . A polish man will happily take ÂŁ12 an hour simply as ÂŁ12 an hour in Poland is a huge amount of money as they end up sending their money home anyway.
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Nauru Dolan
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Re: bullying

Post by Dolan »

XeeleeFlower wrote:After writing my post a few pages back, @Goodspeed and @deleted_user4 gave me a little history lesson that I had either completely missed or forgotten. It's possible that others have as well. Goodspeed alluded to it in a post of his, but didn't go in depth. Basically, the whole "Garja is a god" thing started out as an ironic thing. People who didn't much care for him began to call him this because they thought he was too controlling and stubborn. It then just became a meme and we're now at where we are now. I, for one, didn't know this and assumed that the intentions behind the "big G", "Garja god", etc were because of the work that he has put into this game. I thought it was similar to how we praise @EAGLEMUT for the work that he has done. Had I known that it was actually something done with negative intentions, I wouldn't have engaged in it. I'm pretty sure that most of the people who say these things about @Garja have a similar thought to mine and didn't/don't understand how it came to be. Anyway, with all this in mind, @spanky4ever 's post makes much more sense to me as she probably remembers and/or was there for that drama, so when she sees all this Garja worship, she interpreted it as everyone mocking him. In my eyes, and many others I imagine, it's legitimate praise. All of this appears to be a huge misunderstanding between everyone and possibly even Garja himself. I'm not sure what he really thinks of it all and I highly doubt he will share his thoughts here as no matter what he says could be used as ammo. In any case, he did like my post a few pages back so take that as you will.

It's actually a bit different. Garja was known over the years for a certain big ego attitude on forums. He always had his own approach to build orders, always recommended things which were unusual even for other high-level players, so there was a bit of a baffled reaction from both low and high-level players. Then when he wrote his own guide on Aztecs, things kinda started to snowball in the direction of this cult of Garja, people just started treating Garja's big ego attitude with irony and that's how the Garja memes were born. It's pretty much part of the same taunting and flaming that was going on at the RTS Sanctuary forum back in the good ole days of fanpatch.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

Riotcoke wrote:
Dolan wrote:
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Except that it is. There are so many things at which men and women differ substantially. Substantially as in the binary difference between 1 and 0. Here's an example of a paper which summarises some of the findings on empathy differences: https://www.academia.edu/8530127/Empath ... d_behavior
Really just run a search on "sexual dimorphism in humans", because I think anything I will say, any evidence I will bring you will just dismiss and say it's not significant. It's almost as if sex is just an accident of biology, in your view, it plays almost no role whatsoever. We just happened to get it by chance. So frankly, I don't know if you have such beliefs because your political beliefs trump any empirical evidence you're presented with or if you simply don't understand the significance of this research. It's possible that since I've read research for years, I'm more familiar with how significant even "small differences" can be, in the bigger scheme of things. Or maybe your political worldview couldn't cope with the empirical reality or significance of these facts, no idea.

Yes, like children, adults too share traits, in fact, the similarities are just as numerous, if not more numerous than the differences. And the differences where they exist are relatively small. The lens people filter it through is different per person, per family, per village/city, per region, per country, again changed by religion, sex, age, physical ability, intelligence etc. There are so many factors that you can't just boil it down to 2. The lens of people in North France is probably closer to that of people in South belgium than it is to that of people in South France, yet you would say they're both French so they have same lens. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Then why do you think adults are legally responsible while kids aren't? Jeez, if kids and adults are so similar then they should be equally legally responsible. But no, let's just make any difference as insignificant as possible, to the point that we're all wondering why do we even have different legal status. Not to mention sexual status, since kids who haven't gone through puberty are simply missing that hormonal activation phase that makes adults adults. Yeah, just a little small insignificant detail that has no bearing whatsoever on things. We're all THE SAME, men and women, dogs and worms, kids and adults, it's all one giant phylogenetic kumbaya on this planet.

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Most people do not know 2 languages, period. I lived in a few countries until now and most people in every country I've been to don't know any other language besides their own native one. Provide evidence to the contrary if you have it. Knowing a few words doesn't quite qualify someone as a speaker of another language. You need some basic level of fluency to actually be able to converse meaningfully with someone from another culture. And you also need to actively seek to communicate with someone from another country or culture. And that's just not the case for the huge majority of people from each country and culture. Their everyday life simply doesn't include contact with foreigners and regular communication in another language with them.
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It's not really the same. I would say that multiculturalism in the modern sense is always an artificial product of globalisation. I would call multicultural a country in which the majority of people originate in completely different cultural areas, cultures that are not directly related. Not China or Russia. Cultures that lived in proximity don't quite form a multicultural setting. Not only because they influenced each other and may be partially related but because they had centuries at their disposal to get used to their proximity, so they either solved the issue of vicinity by indifference or amplified it politically into a conflict. But there's nothing in such a neighbouring setting that was created by globalism, like in a multicultural society such as the USA.

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It was in the context of discussing differences in empathy and other emotional reactions that I brought up this paper. The study was about the emotional reaction to pain, which is very relevant to the subject of empathy.

I don't dispute that cultural values and upbringing can affect a persons cognitive response. It's obvious that it can. In ww1 veterans from India had certain different ways of dealing with PTSD than English soldiers. In such a case it's relevant to an extent to understand that patient's culture in order to treat the patient. But if you had raised that same indian man in britain from the start, with a british family, he would respond like the british soldier. not like the indian one. Culture isn't rigid and static, people adapt, acquire and let go of things. A person raised for the first 20 years in culture A, who then lives for the next 40 years in culture B will mix those two cultures into his identity. And you can't know what that person acquired or dropped, so when you see that person and go oh, he's from culture A (or culture A+B), that will tell you pretty much nothing about that person unless you get know that person better and also know something about that culture.

I think I made one long post on this subject, when I quoted the papers on how Asians and Western Europeans tend to process geometrical shapes differently. The difference also seems to have been at least partially inborn, as it was also reflected in gaze patterns in newborns, iirc.
So in most contexts, the above doesn't matter. If you hire someone to scoop ice cream, it really doesn't matter much if you know that person has .1 higher perceived pain rate for a needle entering the palm. All that matters is if that person can scoop ice cream. Knowing what someone's culture is doesn't matter when you play aoe3 with them. The reason why it doesn't matter is because it doesn't tell you much beyond generalisations, which as we have already agreed, won't necessarily tell you anything about the individual. I'm not saying it doesn't affect anyone's life, but fixating on the culture and gender instead of on the person is the wrong approach.

Of course it matters. If you never noticed any difference between players from Turkey and players from the UK, well, I'm sorry, maybe you don't have a trained eye in psychological phenomena. I surely notice lots of differences in communication styles, in attitude to hardship, etc. So yeah, this will be reflected in how they do the same job too. There's a reason why British farmers hired Romanians until now and will have to switch to Ukrainians or Russians after Brexit. It's not just because it's a low-paid job, because there surely are lots of low-income people in the UK too. It's also because that spirit of putting up with physical labour and hardship is kinda missing in Britain and still found in Eastern Europe. It's not by accident that most plumber jobs are also taken by Polish people. It's not like Poland had some kind of special connection with plumbing, it's because it's a hard physical job that requires physical and mental resilience to hardship and young people in Western Europe have grown up with a much different mentality, they see such jobs are unworthy and demeaning, they'd rather work in the services sector, earn a lot more and focus on saving the planet from the menace of climate change.

In regards to your plumbing answer, it's not that British people don't want to be plumbers it's that eastern Europeans price them out with hilariously low costs for jobs. For example the average wage for a bricklayer in the UK is around ÂŁ25 an hour . A polish man will happily take ÂŁ12 an hour simply as ÂŁ12 an hour in Poland is a huge amount of money as they end up sending their money home anyway.


nah polish are born with a genetic toughness trait amplified by a toughness culture...
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Dolan wrote:Rofl :lol:


:uglylol:

you should start a poll on how many languages people here speak ;) maybe you'll learn something.
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@Riotcoke That's also true, though I'm not sure if it's only that. I mean there surely are people with very low income in Britain too and I don't think everyone in Britain would scoff at working at the same rates as Polish or Romanian people. It's just that they think they have much better alternatives.
There was a documentary on a British TV channel, might have been ITV or the BBC, don't remember, and agricultural employers explained that they employed both British and non-British workers and the British ones gave up fast, or very few managed to remain there. I can't find that documentary, but here's an article which kinda says something similar:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/p ... 69806.html
“A lot of kids would never do this kind of work,” says Lewis Hiscox, 24, a recent graduate from Harper Adams University, who was working on the blackcurrant harvester, too. “They'd rather give London a try for more money, more fun. Also, there's the snob thing. Farm work is associated with Eastern Europeans,” meaning “work for poor people”.

Many observers have suggested that Brits today are “too lazy” to do the farm work of their yeoman ancestors. Hiscox says that physically, “the British worker could definitely do this job.” He says the work provides an “outdoor life” and decent pay for a young person.

Elliot Packham, 22, who just graduated from Cardiff University, wondered, “If the pay were better, more might try?” He noted that then strawberries would cost more.

Also, those Polish plumbers might send the money back home, but they also have to somehow pay for the higher living costs in the UK, compared to their home country.
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Post by Dolan »

umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:Rofl :lol:
:uglylol:

you should start a poll on how many languages people here speak ;) maybe you'll learn something.
Yeah, right, learn something from a sample that is statistically irrelevant to the make-up of the general population. Smaht. :ugly:
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Post by Riotcoke »

I'm only taking in terms of skilled contractors, as that's the only area I have any knowledge seeing as my family runs a construction company. However from what I can gleam people in Dorset at least aren't ones to shy away from hard graft, it may be a more urban thing.
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Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:Rofl :lol:
:uglylol:

you should start a poll on how many languages people here speak ;) maybe you'll learn something.
Yeah, right, learn something from a sample that is statistically irrelevant to the make-up of the general population. Smaht. :ugly:


Oh, so 50 esocians from all over the world arent statistically relevant to the worlds population, but you can conclude something about literally billions of people from asia based on showing pictures to 47 university students from hongkong. :uglylol: :maniac:

Got ya...
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Post by Dolan »

It kinda depends on what you're studying. Some kinds of traits have such subtle differences that you need very large samples to get significant results. For differences that manifest themselves in more binary ways, smaller samples can do fine too.
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Dolan wrote:It kinda depends on what you're studying. Some kinds of traits have such subtle differences that you need very large samples to get significant results. For differences that manifest themselves in more binary ways, smaller samples can do fine too.


Eh? Do you speak more than one language seems very binary to me. Yes, or no.

The other study was far from binary, and in fact, the differences they did find were very small and subtle, yet according to you enough to say something about over a billion people.

Must be that one year psychology course talking.

Whatever you need to justify your crazy shit mate. But you are contradicting yourselfn
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umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:It kinda depends on what you're studying. Some kinds of traits have such subtle differences that you need very large samples to get significant results. For differences that manifest themselves in more binary ways, smaller samples can do fine too.


Eh? Do you speak more than one language seems very binary to me. Yes, or no.

The other study was far from binary, and in fact, the differences they did find were very small and subtle, yet according to you enough to say something about over a billion people.

Must be that one year psychology course talking.

Whatever you need to justify your crazy shit mate. But you are contradicting yourselfn

Tbh, you just sound like you are in denial that there are a couple of fields in medicine, neuroscience, psychology that have been studying such differences between men and women, between different ethnic groups for decades already. It really doesn't matter much that you're one guy on a gaming forum who doubts the validity of their work. Because that body of knowledge keeps growing, keeps accumulating and it's actually practically useful in the everyday practice of medicine, psychology and other fields.

There's a whole body of research on health disparities in pain perception, pain conditions prevalence, in the way people target their empathy and so on.

Sample of 337 patients
http://www.pain-initiative-un.org/doc-c ... 20pain.pdf

Sample of 4730 patients
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17552045

Sample of 3669 patients:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 0002650138

1557 patients:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12468000

Etc, etc. Whatever, m9, keep believing that everything you don't like is "socially constructed" and the result of evil ideologies, and biology only builds decent (like Rousseau's noble savage meme), domestic and mostly similar organisms. Nature will keep defying your expectations, because it lives on conflict, difference and competition, not on sameness and global spiritual rasta vibes of oneness into Jah.
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Post by fightinfrenchman »

Umeu and Dolan should have their own section of the forums and just argue there
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Re: bullying

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fightinfrenchman wrote:Umeu and Dolan should have their own section of the forums and just argue there

It's already there though, theres a direct message feature
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Mug virtue signals.
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Post by gibson »

@deleted_user pack it up, people of different cultures react to pain a little differently, therefore it’s impossible for people from different cultures to get along
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Post by lejend »

The absolute state of ESOC recently

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Re: bullying

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u.s people fucked the world. change my mind
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Re: bullying

Post by sebnan12 »

Goodspeed wrote:It shouldn't be up to Garja to set boundaries on how much the collective community gets to make fun of him. Again, maybe instead of treating him like a living meme and hiding behind "well he never said not to" we should treat him with the respect he deserves. That way we don't have to ask questions like this.

allah goodspeed
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