Discussion about off-topic & forum rules

[comradecommissar]

This makes me sad. Mitoe so obviously comes off as one of the good guys of the game. Its sad to see things reach this point. If any good can come out of this, maybe this community--and more specifically the mods-- can reflect on where things went wrong. Otherwise, this will keep happening over and over again.

[comradecommissar]

Also, I said this in the racism thread I created too, but I fear the moderation team doesn't have any kind of diversity. And by that, I don't just mean diversity of background and experience but also diversity of thought. You really do need more people who take a harsher stance on racism and bigotry and homophobia. But it feels like people like @HeadKilla who did that were driven out.

[harcha]

Otherwise, this will keep happening over and over again.

nah, as you see people will just feel discouraged to visit this forum and engage, so it is a death sentence for the forum

[[Armag] diarouga]

It all comes down to the terrible management of ESOC.

I guess it's the kind of negativity Mitoe doesn't want to read xD

Hate of maps is a consequence of not listening to the community before adding them to the map pool. I agree, I have been very wrong telling Riki negatively about maps, when the real problem has been approving them straight.

There was a lot of negativity toward map and map makers, and I have to admit I was one of the most negative about it. While I agree that negativity is not good, there was a problem with tournament staff and map pool.
We'd get Tibet, Bonnie Spring and other uncompetitive maps in every tourney, and that was tiring.

Fortunately, the tournament admins understood that a large part of the community wasn't too happy about that, and started to think more about map pools. Frankly, there's not a lot of negativity toward map makers today, way less than 2 or 3 years ago. The situation has improved.

Hate of EP changes is a consequence of a system where a very low level player, not many wanted to, made them without community approval.

Ye, this is a very difficult topic, and I guess people are right when they say that I created a lot of negativity around EP, but frankly, ESOC asked for it. The EP process was simply disrespectful and the result was awful, I wonder how it lasted so long that way.
I tend to be negative, and sometimes agressive, I know that, but here the responsability for this negativity is shared, it's not just because of the negative members of ESOC.
Anyway, just like for the maps, the situation has improved, and there's barely any negativity toward EP today.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Also, I said this in the racism thread I created too, but I fear the moderation team doesn't have any kind of diversity. And by that, I don't just mean diversity of background and experience but also diversity of thought. You really do need more people who take a harsher stance on racism and bigotry and homophobia. But it feels like people like @HeadKilla who did that were driven out.

Why do you have to start another conversation about racism ?
I think part of the problem is that ESOC is an age of empires 3 forum, but people don't talk about aoe3 anymore.
When I first joined ESOC, people would post recs and ask for advice or show people a new strategy. Top players don't get involved in this because twitch killed recorded games, and I'm the only person in the community who prefers recs over streams.
There was also some strategy talk. A few years ago MU of the week was created. After Incog gave up on it, I made the threads and discussions for 2-3 weeks, but eventually gave up too because noone cared about it, and there was no discussion.
The situation has changed since 2015, and most people don't come here to discuss the game anymore, unfortunately.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's something that has to come from all of you. Blaming staff or off topic is completely misunderstanding the situation. You have a people problem, not a policy one.

Both frankly. Regarding EP and maps, there was a policy problem, and that's what created the toxicity.

[comradecommissar]

A community is only as good as its people.

ESOC has had a lot of toxicity problems from the beginning. It comes back to the culture shift where being toxic became the norm among top players, or at least accepted. And whatever happens in the high level community propagates. Soon enough, being a respectful and decent person was exceptional here. This in no small part contributed to my leaving the game.

Toxic players would've been shunned in 2010, no matter how good they were. If you want to get back to that, that's where you start. Don't ban anyone, but consistently make it clear that this kind of behavior isn't appreciated by anyone here. Don't be a fan. Don't put them on a pedestal.

It's something that has to come from all of you. Blaming staff or off topic is completely misunderstanding the situation. You have a people problem, not a policy one.

Why can't it be both? Both things can be true; the community moved more towards toxic behaviour and negativity (as did the internet in general) over this period, and the admin team didn't do a good enough job of keeping it in check. I've seen some of the stuff that gets said on off-topic. It made me shudder, reading that, and the mods clearly thought that was okay.

Why do you have to start another conversation about racism ?

I really don't want to engage with you. Please stop. Please. I implore you. At least out of respect for Mitoe, if not me.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I really don't want to engage with you. Please stop. Please. I implore you. At least out of respect for Mitoe, if not me.

Then can you stop talking about controversial political topics ? Please.
You did it again in this exact post.

[comradecommissar]

I really don't want to engage with you. Please stop. Please. I implore you. At least out of respect for Mitoe, if not me.

Then can you stop talking about controversial political topics ? Please.
You did it again in this exact post.

All I said was that the mod team needs more diversity? Don't get yourself so worked up.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well, this is political coming from you in my book, but fine, let's leave it here.

[Goodspeed]

A community is only as good as its people.

ESOC has had a lot of toxicity problems from the beginning. It comes back to the culture shift where being toxic became the norm among top players, or at least accepted. And whatever happens in the high level community propagates. Soon enough, being a respectful and decent person was exceptional here. This in no small part contributed to my leaving the game.

Toxic players would've been shunned in 2010, no matter how good they were. If you want to get back to that, that's where you start. Don't ban anyone, but consistently make it clear that this kind of behavior isn't appreciated by anyone here. Don't be a fan. Don't put them on a pedestal.

It's something that has to come from all of you. Blaming staff or off topic is completely misunderstanding the situation. You have a people problem, not a policy one.

Why can't it be both? Both things can be true; the community moved more towards toxic behaviour and negativity (as did the internet in general) over this period, and the admin team didn't do a good enough job of keeping it in check.

If keeping it in check means banning half the top players, that's not really an option. It's especially not an option when this behavior becomes the norm to such an extent that the community at large accepts it. Then cracking down on it actually becomes controversial. And it turned out to be, in the past.

I've seen some of the stuff that gets said on off-topic. It made me shudder, reading that, and the mods clearly thought that was okay.

The occasional controversial OT thread does not a toxic community make, especially considering the two communities are relatively separate. Many OT posters don't play the game, and an overwhelming majority of ESOCians who do play the game don't participate in OT. People love to blame it though, because that means they are not at fault for repeatedly putting toxic players on pedestals.

[comradecommissar]

A community is only as good as its people.

ESOC has had a lot of toxicity problems from the beginning. It comes back to the culture shift where being toxic became the norm among top players, or at least accepted. And whatever happens in the high level community propagates. Soon enough, being a respectful and decent person was exceptional here. This in no small part contributed to my leaving the game.

Toxic players would've been shunned in 2010, no matter how good they were. If you want to get back to that, that's where you start. Don't ban anyone, but consistently make it clear that this kind of behavior isn't appreciated by anyone here. Don't be a fan. Don't put them on a pedestal.

It's something that has to come from all of you. Blaming staff or off topic is completely misunderstanding the situation. You have a people problem, not a policy one.

Why can't it be both? Both things can be true; the community moved more towards toxic behaviour and negativity (as did the internet in general) over this period, and the admin team didn't do a good enough job of keeping it in check.

If keeping it in check means banning half the top players, that's not really an option. It's especially not an option when this behavior becomes the norm to such an extent that the community at large accepts it. Then cracking down on it actually becomes controversial. And it turned out to be, in the past.

I hear you. That's an important point to make. There definitely needs to be more individual soul searching within the community.

[XeeleeFlower]

I think that there's a serious romanticizing of the past going on here. I've lurked this community before it became ESOC. I lurked on ESOC for awhile before creating my account. There have always been issues. People have always resigned from staff or quit being a member because of issues. There have always been people using words that others find offensive. I have a particular person and thread in mind right now that some people will remember, but I'm not going to link the thread or mention any names because I feel that some people may be embarrassed with how they behaved in said thread.

There was another woman on these forums several years ago, before I officially joined. She made a thread about the use of certain words and how they affect her. I don't remember exact specifics, but there were people in that thread who said some pretty negative things towards her and they were not banned, nor were they warned for what they said. Some of those people have changed over the years and you would be surprised to read the things they previously wrote.

In addition to the rampant misogyny on these forums, there were also many offensive slurs thrown around. I didn't feel comfortable joining for quite some time. I caught QueenOfdestiny's stream on Twitch and felt super empowered by her. Here's a woman who doesn't give a fuck about being a woman playing the game! That's when I decided to join the forums. Shortly thereafter, there was another thread about sexism and misogyny. This was 4 years ago.

All this to say that things, in my opinion, have actually improved. I can watch an ESOC stream on twitch or a youtube video and not hear casters talking about how someone is a fag, retard, or getting raped. Even people I deeply love engaged in this behavior. I can read the forums and not feel grossed out because of constant usage of certain words or opinions. Words weren't banned. Thoughts weren't banned. People changed because there have been so many discussions over the years. I've even changed and I feel I'm more open to forgiveness and understanding of others who I would've initially wrote off. People change. But people can't change if they aren't presented with ideas that are different from their own. That's why I feel discussions, regardless of the topic, are so important. The balance is trying to have those discussions with all parties being respectful and discussing in good faith with one another.

[comradecommissar]

I think that there's a serious romanticizing of the past going on here. I've lurked this community before it became ESOC. I lurked on ESOC for awhile before creating my account. There have always been issues. People have always resigned from staff or quit being a member because of issues. There have always been people using words that others find offensive. I have a particular person and thread in mind right now that some people will remember, but I'm not going to link the thread or mention any names because I feel that some people may be embarrassed with how they behaved in said thread.

There was another woman on these forums several years ago, before I officially joined. She made a thread about the use of certain words and how they affect her. I don't remember exact specifics, but there were people in that thread who said some pretty negative things towards her and they were not banned, nor were they warned for what they said. Some of those people have changed over the years and you would be surprised to read the things they previously wrote.

In addition to the rampant misogyny on these forums, there were also many offensive slurs thrown around. I didn't feel comfortable joining for quite some time. I caught QueenOfdestiny's stream on Twitch and felt super empowered by her. Here's a woman who doesn't give a fuck about being a woman playing the game! That's when I decided to join the forums. Shortly thereafter, there was another thread about sexism and misogyny. This was 4 years ago.

All this to say that things, in my opinion, have actually improved. I can watch an ESOC stream on twitch or a youtube video and not hear casters talking about how someone is a fag, retard, or getting raped. Even someone I deeply love engaged in this behavior. I can read the forums and not feel grossed out because of constant usage of certain words or opinions. Words weren't banned. Thoughts weren't banned. People changed because there have been so many discussions over the years. I've even changed and I feel I'm more open to forgiveness and understanding of others who I would've initially wrote off. People change. But people can't change if they aren't presented with ideas that are different from their own. That's why I feel discussions, regardless of the topic, are so important. The balance is trying to have those discussions with all parties being respectful and discussing in good faith with one another.

Thank you for saying this! I feel like voices like yours are so important to hear!

I wasn't here, so I can't speak much on how things have changed, but there are still top level casters and players who throw around words like fag, retard and hurl rape threats. I've only been part of this community a few months, but this intensely bothered me.

[[Armag] diarouga]

That's why I feel discussions, regardless of the topic, are so important. The balance is trying to have those discussions with all parties being respectful and discussing in good faith with one another.

The problem in the past days is that the discussion was simply political. Both sides have their opinion, and you won't make people change their mind about it.
So what's the point ? People get offended and the discussion isn't constructive.

[Black_Duck]

That's why I feel discussions, regardless of the topic, are so important. The balance is trying to have those discussions with all parties being respectful and discussing in good faith with one another.

The problem in the past days is that the discussion was simply political. Both sides have their opinion, and you won't make people change their mind about it.
So what's the point ? People get offended and the discussion isn't constructive.

Wasnt much of a discussion then was it

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yes, that wasn't really a discussion.

[XeeleeFlower]

That's why I feel discussions, regardless of the topic, are so important. The balance is trying to have those discussions with all parties being respectful and discussing in good faith with one another.

The problem in the past days is that the discussion was simply political. Both sides have their opinion, and you won't make people change their mind about it.
So what's the point ? People get offended and the discussion isn't constructive.

Every discussion can be political. The point in having a discussion shouldn't be change someone's mind. It should be to express yourself and try to get others to see your point of view while also seeing their point of view.

People get offended when they feel attacked or when they feel someone is attacking something they believe in. Trying to change someone's mind is a form of attack because you're simply trying to replace what's in their head with your own thoughts instead of trying to understand where they are coming from.

[toriancarconn]

It's something that has to come from all of you. Blaming staff or off topic is completely misunderstanding the situation. You have a people problem, not a policy one.

Both frankly. Regarding EP and maps, there was a policy problem, and that's what created the toxicity.

I disagree. If frustration because of maps triggers someone to communicate in a toxic way here on our platform, it's just plain wrong. Why not criticise in a more civilised manner? The reason for such toxic behaviour does not stem from an external factor such as maps but from the internal state of the person. To make the connection "bad maps lead to toxic communication" is playing the blame game and placing responsibility onto someone else while not taking responsibility for one's own behavior.

I reckon what someone considers to be toxic communication others might not, it isn't black and white. Our interpreation of words expressed is highly individual. If someone tells someone else that he is a "dickhead", he can say it while meaning no harm whatsoever or say it as an insult. Same on the receiving end: someone hears this and feels it is toxic/offensive whilst others will interpret it as just a .... "word". The person who spoke it might place an entirely different meaning into this word. What is necessary, though, is sensitivity, emotional intelligence, to understand how certain words might be interpreted by others. After all, each of us adds his own meaning to words, based on background, culture, upbringing, mood....

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's something that has to come from all of you. Blaming staff or off topic is completely misunderstanding the situation. You have a people problem, not a policy one.

Both frankly. Regarding EP and maps, there was a policy problem, and that's what created the toxicity.

I disagree. If frustration because of maps triggers someone to communicate in a toxic way here on our platform, it's just plain wrong. Why not criticise in a more civilised manner? The reason for such toxic behaviour does not stem from an external factor such as maps but from the internal state of the person.

You're right about that, it doesn't justify being toxic.
Still, when we get Bonnie Spring in tournament, after we've said 5 times that this is not a good tournament map, it gets frustrating.
That was even worse with EP changes, we got some changes 100% of the top players didn't want, and even the people who criticised in a civilised manner were ignored.

My point is that admins ignoring people, leads to frustration, and for some people like me, a lot of frustration leads to toxicity. That doesn't mean that I'm not part of the issue, but a totalitarian EP leader is responsible as well for the toxicity for instance.

Fortunately, admins are more open today, and listen to criticism. That's why we don't have issues about maps and EP anymore.

[Riotcoke]

@Mitoe specifically about the casting stuff , I assume you're talking about me? I sometimes think it's more fun to add a bit more character when casting but I can definitely see where it can be a problem, your game Vs gua the casting is just poor and honestly I wish I never did it.

[harcha]

@toriancarconn I agree that it is a communication problem. I have noticed that some high ranking players seem to respond with a short&spicy hot-take when a divisive question of "tournament map choices" or "wall balance/walling playstyle" or other (off topic) arises. Only when you question the meaning of this take will they start to actually communicate the points that they stand by. Of course this breeds more toxicity as players that look up to the higher ranking ones adopt this dismissive attitude towards such issues, especially regarding AOE3 stuffs.

I cannot tell, however, why aforementioned high ranking players spew these hot takes. Perhaps it is because they've already talked about them at length year after year and don't feel like they need to elaborate yet again. Either way it's unhealthy as this makes people less communicable in the forum and community in general, breeding more toxicity.

Basically what @[Armag] diarouga said.

[harcha]

@Mitoe specifically about the casting stuff , I assume you're talking about me? I sometimes think it's more fun to add a bit more character when casting but I can definitely see where it can be a problem, your game Vs gua the casting is just poor and honestly I wish I never did it.

We all need casting etiquette lessons by the legend @Zutazuta . Even Veni used to make some bad taste remarks about players skill and playstyles.

[[Armag] diarouga]

@Mitoe specifically about the casting stuff , I assume you're talking about me? I sometimes think it's more fun to add a bit more character when casting but I can definitely see where it can be a problem, your game Vs gua the casting is just poor and honestly I wish I never did it.

I don't really care about that personally, but I can see why people care, better to avoid it in the future.

[Goodspeed]

@Mitoe specifically about the casting stuff , I assume you're talking about me? I sometimes think it's more fun to add a bit more character when casting but I can definitely see where it can be a problem, your game Vs gua the casting is just poor and honestly I wish I never did it.

I don't really care about that personally, but I can see why people care, better to avoid it in the future.

A rare moment of clarity