Discussion about off-topic & forum rules

[Sargsyan]

I have thought about this for a bit, but I can't quite ascertain the actual problem and the causes.

I believe one of the core problems is that actual age of empires 3 discussion is essentially dead. Maybe it has never been alive to begin with. I remember the agecommunity days, where agecommunity - as the official forum - attracted many newer players that were curious about things. Deep strategic discussion was somewhat rare, particularly because there were few good players there, but many people had fun discussing the game that they actually liked. I feel like that stopped happening on ESOC after less than half a year. We should be united in our love for and interest in the game, but that won't happen if that part of the game is never the subject of a discussion.

Why did this never really happen? I find it hard to determine the reason. One of the biggest reasons is probably that there are almost no new players joining these forums. You find out about ESOC after having become quite decent already. But I also feel like there has never been a constructive attitude towards strategic discussions. I feel like some top players are extremely condescending towards newer players. The second someone says something slightly wrong there is a pack of hyenas ready to tear that person apart for that mistake. It's never been about discussing the game, about learning new things or advancing strategy. It has seemingly always been about people wanting to show others how right they are. I find it hard to tell if this is a collective community attitude, if it's being caused by a small group of vocal people or if this is just something that is bound to happen unless you moderate very strictly.

Maybe EP had a negative effect on this too. Back in the day people used to accept that the balance was bad, that some civs were bad and some were good. With EP, this narrative disappeared and people quite quickly moved towards balance whining. The balance discussions are quite polarizing in general, but beyond that I feel like they also took the place of actual strategy discussions. Instead of discussing how to optimally play some weak civs, or discussing how to beat some good civs, people instead complained about the balance. This was further emphasized by the tournament format, where finding out winning match ups was crucial. Instead of people having fun trying to learn the game, it became all about finding the easy match ups and then complaining about balance. In part, this is a community attitude. It has always bothered me how many people don't actually engage with aoe3 strategy - the thing that makes the game so special. They just bot whatever build seems good at the time and complain about balance otherwise. I feel like this is just what will happen when you start a community balance patch, it's an unfortunate consequence of an otherwise good project.

However, the balance discussions have been greatly emphasized by the poor management of EP. This is a negative thing to say unfortunately, but I feel like it isn't constructive to shy away from stating the truth. EP as a project could have gone much better if it had been managed better. The fact that it quickly moved away from a community project to a project led by two guys that didn't even play the game. I felt like so many decisions had their basis in pure bias. I think it was especially jarring that goodspeed and zoi decided to redesign the game without taking proper community input. Good design is subjective and it is ridiculous to think that you can properly represent the community without giving the community a proper voice. This led to toxicity from other members, but I actually think that for once this toxicity was completely justified. What zoi was doing was not acceptable in my book. It was very harmful towards the game and could have (and still can) a lasting negative impact if some of this stuff is implemented in DE. Balance and design discussions are always polarizing and will never be the pinnacle of positivity, but this was made so much worse by the way goodspeed and zoi handled EP. I'm sorry to throw these guys under the bus like this, but we should be mature enough to face the truth.

Lastly, I feel like off topic has been in a pretty bad spot for years now. At the start off topic felt like a great place. There was open minded discussion and there were a lot of topics that bonded people beyond age of empires. I still think that off topic took a big hit when the Ear and Evilcheader purposely spammed the forums to troll. Again, I don't know if mentioning names is too constructive, but this is once again the truth and we should be willing to face the truth. For anyone doubting that the Ear and Cheader spammed on purpose, I remember being in the discord voice chat with them and they started discussing making a shitpost. They then giggled for some ten minutes while playing boring quotes on a soundboard, and created some nonsense post. These posts really cluttered off topic, to the point where over half of off topic was them making shitposts. In my opinion moderation was way too slow to decide that shitposts are harmful, and by the time moderation actually stepped up I feel like a lot of damage had been done already. Many people stopped reading off topic alltogether, and off topic went from a place where the entire community bonded to a place where a few enthousiasts kept discussing some political stuff.

Off topic might have been recovering lately from the spam era, but the discussing of political stuff has become rather toxic. At its core I believe there is a conflict between Americans and Europeans. These people have somewhat different values when it comes to some progressive subjects and discrimination. On the one hand, there are some users that have posted some ugly things (erring on the side of racism or anti-semitism). On the other hand, I feel like a group of users are overly defensive about their views. They have almost no understanding for different points of view and they attack people for having a different point of view. I used to enjoy off topic discussions, but I quit the forums alltogether because people kept insulting me and accusing me of criminal behaviour because I was expressing my opinion. A opinion that definitely wasn't racist or anti-semitic, but wasn't as progressive as what some people believe. The moment multiple people attacked me as a person and accused me of being a racist without any moderator intervening was the moment I decided to leave this place.

Maybe this is one of the most common themes on these forums. When people disagree, they start insulting eachother. Stuff like that can happen in a heated discussion, but it's never been moderated properly. I feel like it's okay to be strict in moderating this aspect of the forums, but throughout the years this has never been something that is being moderated consistently. It's unfortunate that it's led to a toxic environment. I will not be returning any time soon, but I sincerely hope you guys can turn it around.

[somp]

now as I think about it, it all started going wrong when harry decided to start play treaty

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

I think that there's a serious romanticizing of the past going on here. I've lurked this community before it became ESOC. I lurked on ESOC for awhile before creating my account. There have always been issues. People have always resigned from staff or quit being a member because of issues. There have always been people using words that others find offensive. I have a particular person and thread in mind right now that some people will remember, but I'm not going to link the thread or mention any names because I feel that some people may be embarrassed with how they behaved in said thread.

There was another woman on these forums several years ago, before I officially joined. She made a thread about the use of certain words and how they affect her. I don't remember exact specifics, but there were people in that thread who said some pretty negative things towards her and they were not banned, nor were they warned for what they said. Some of those people have changed over the years and you would be surprised to read the things they previously wrote.

In addition to the rampant misogyny on these forums, there were also many offensive slurs thrown around. I didn't feel comfortable joining for quite some time. I caught QueenOfdestiny's stream on Twitch and felt super empowered by her. Here's a woman who doesn't give a fuck about being a woman playing the game! That's when I decided to join the forums. Shortly thereafter, there was another thread about sexism and misogyny. This was 4 years ago.

All this to say that things, in my opinion, have actually improved. I can watch an ESOC stream on twitch or a youtube video and not hear casters talking about how someone is a fag, retard, or getting raped. Even someone I deeply love engaged in this behavior. I can read the forums and not feel grossed out because of constant usage of certain words or opinions. Words weren't banned. Thoughts weren't banned. People changed because there have been so many discussions over the years. I've even changed and I feel I'm more open to forgiveness and understanding of others who I would've initially wrote off. People change. But people can't change if they aren't presented with ideas that are different from their own. That's why I feel discussions, regardless of the topic, are so important. The balance is trying to have those discussions with all parties being respectful and discussing in good faith with one another.

Thank you for saying this! I feel like voices like yours are so important to hear!

I wasn't here, so I can't speak much on how things have changed, but there are still top level casters and players who throw around words like fag, retard and hurl rape threats. I've only been part of this community a few months, but this intensely bothered me.

This isn't a reply directly but more like a quote, I think a few time recently where this has occurred "bad words said on esoctv stream" have come from players/casters who are not native English speakers, and it is correctly brought up here as it unacceptable language if they haven't fully understood the context. It's kinda on intolerable for native/ very fluent English speakers though. The second problem is the fact that it's a live broadcast, once a word is said that is it its been said and their is no undo option, we have to be understanding that sometimes mistakes are made.

I hope people who may have been involved in the above will not use that language, especially the word rape in a stream again

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think Jerom's post sums it up very well. The discussions on the forum are not very interesting because people don't talk about the game anymore.

And also this :

The moment multiple people attacked me as a person and accused me of being a racist without any moderator intervening was the moment I decided to leave this place.

[comradecommissar]

I think that there's a serious romanticizing of the past going on here. I've lurked this community before it became ESOC. I lurked on ESOC for awhile before creating my account. There have always been issues. People have always resigned from staff or quit being a member because of issues. There have always been people using words that others find offensive. I have a particular person and thread in mind right now that some people will remember, but I'm not going to link the thread or mention any names because I feel that some people may be embarrassed with how they behaved in said thread.

There was another woman on these forums several years ago, before I officially joined. She made a thread about the use of certain words and how they affect her. I don't remember exact specifics, but there were people in that thread who said some pretty negative things towards her and they were not banned, nor were they warned for what they said. Some of those people have changed over the years and you would be surprised to read the things they previously wrote.

In addition to the rampant misogyny on these forums, there were also many offensive slurs thrown around. I didn't feel comfortable joining for quite some time. I caught QueenOfdestiny's stream on Twitch and felt super empowered by her. Here's a woman who doesn't give a fuck about being a woman playing the game! That's when I decided to join the forums. Shortly thereafter, there was another thread about sexism and misogyny. This was 4 years ago.

All this to say that things, in my opinion, have actually improved. I can watch an ESOC stream on twitch or a youtube video and not hear casters talking about how someone is a fag, retard, or getting raped. Even someone I deeply love engaged in this behavior. I can read the forums and not feel grossed out because of constant usage of certain words or opinions. Words weren't banned. Thoughts weren't banned. People changed because there have been so many discussions over the years. I've even changed and I feel I'm more open to forgiveness and understanding of others who I would've initially wrote off. People change. But people can't change if they aren't presented with ideas that are different from their own. That's why I feel discussions, regardless of the topic, are so important. The balance is trying to have those discussions with all parties being respectful and discussing in good faith with one another.

Thank you for saying this! I feel like voices like yours are so important to hear!

I wasn't here, so I can't speak much on how things have changed, but there are still top level casters and players who throw around words like fag, retard and hurl rape threats. I've only been part of this community a few months, but this intensely bothered me.

This isn't a reply directly but more like a quote, I think a few time recently where this has occurred "bad words said on esoctv stream" have come from players/casters who are not native English speakers, and it is correctly brought up here as it unacceptable language if they haven't fully understood the context. It's kinda on intolerable for native/ very fluent English speakers though. The second problem is the fact that it's a live broadcast, once a word is said that is it its been said and their is no undo option, we have to be understanding that sometimes mistakes are made.

I hope people who may have been involved in the above will not use that language, especially the word rape in a stream again

I hear you, but the casters have also reacted negatively when it was pointed out to them how offensive these words were.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

@I_HaRRiiSoN_I is a great caster and I feel like he needs to be appreciated more.

I've only just read this after my previous reply, many thanks for your kind words, luckily for you I'm still carrying as usual and still enjoying it :)

[don_artie]

From a guy that only plays team games, I just wanna say my part regarding those. Team games can be very frustrating on many levels, lets use 3v3 as example. First of all there is basically always quite big skill difference between players. you're just not gonna fill a lobby with 6 players of the same pr, i'm pr31 personally and sometimes I play with mainly 1st ltts and sometimes with people way better than me. Aside from skill diff there is just so much to get frustrated about, losing an abus mass to cav because your goon player ran away, your cav player not catching raids, someone going for a strat that is very bad etc. I know for myself that sometimes I can frustrate my teammates by playing too boomy for example. Anyway my point is, if you're going into those games, you gotta be able to accept all those frustrations and just try to do your best and enjoy it. Especially if you're higher ranked than someone else, don't put them down. When I play with 2nd ltts or 1st ltts sometimes they will do something that really fucks me over, but you gotta just accept that and think they're trying their best. For a while I was playing some ep games with higher ranked players and I would often feel shit because whoever happened to get me on their team (random team rng), would be less likely to win. I look up to quite a lot of you guys in terms of skill level and when i'm in those games I try my best to win them, but just cus i'm worse it will be difficult. When I lose those games, please try not to put me down just like I try not to put 2nd ltts down. Like just either accept that you're playing with people worse than you and don't flame them, or don't play with them at all. For me it's especially weird with all the smurf accounts (there have been more and more), who are putting people down in chat. Like yes I know you are better than me, there is no need to write all my fuck ups down.

Some time ago when I was playing ep with the higher rated players, I had a frustrating game with hazza. The opponents were pushing with falcs so we needed culvs, I decided to sent him 500w 1k c as my way of saying: you make them please. He didn't realise this the same way, and to be fair that was on me for not communicating (and I shoulda just made them myself). After the game he was calling me lots of names and for me it was a reason to not continue playing. This isn't meant to call you out hazza, but just want to say you're someone I look up to in terms of skill (im nowhere close to you) and in game I kinda feel pressure to do well. So when I fail to do well and then I get called names, I can get sensitive about that shit. Anyway overly long message but bottom line my point is; if you play team, accept your allies even if they're much worse than you, otherwise just don't be in that lobby. And also accept the fact that there will be a lot of frustrating shit happening due to your teammates not doing what you want haha.

Also regarding twitch, usually when im in a chat im just trolling/messing around writing random comments, it's meant in good fun but if it's experienced otherwise just hit me up about it.

All that said, for me personally I still feel there is plenty of positive people to play team with and that needs to be said as well. shoutout to people like davesanlol who wont bitch win or lose and just play the game.

[BrookG]

On a more serious note, people are growing and developing, and the passion for playing the game or browsing the forum has somewhat faded. It becoming a habit from a hobby, might take away the fun of the activity; hence, the negativity. Fyi this negativity was clearly evident during the EPL. The situation back then was far more tense. It hasn't de-escalated completely, but we still have to work towards fixing it.

[SoldieR]

There has always been negativety in the community. Off topic has become ridiculous and spills over into rest of the community in all aspects. That seems to happen with political discussions. People seem to hold onto their thoughts with that and try to talk about it everywhere. And in general people seem less polite in the world and internet. Maybe we need to really consider not allowing political discussions on a gaming forum.

I do think with DE3 this will improve as there will be much more game related discussions.

That only goes so far tho. People need to want to be decent to others.

[don_artie]

On a more serious note, people are growing and developing, and the passion for playing the game or browsing the forum has somewhat faded. It becoming a habit from a hobby, might take away the fun of the activity; hence, the negativity. Fyi this negativity was clearly evident during the EPL. The situation back then was far more tense. It hasn't de-escalated completely, but we still have to work towards fixing it.

yeah I also think the longer people play, the more perfect play is attempted, and whenever it isn't perfect people will be more negative about it. it's better when it's the wild west instead of everyone holding onto a perfect build order, it's more clear when someone messes up and there is negativity about it

[Hawk_Girl]

losing an abus mass to cav because your goon player ran away

This is the single most upsetting thing in this thread

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[Hawk_Girl]

There has always been negativety in the community. Off topic has become ridiculous and spills over into rest of the community in all aspects. That seems to happen with political discussions. People seem to hold onto their thoughts with that and try to talk about it everywhere. And in general people seem less polite in the world and internet. Maybe we need to really consider not allowing political discussions on a gaming forum.

I do think with DE3 this will improve as there will be much more game related discussions.

That only goes so far tho. People need to want to be decent to others.

I dont think banning topics are the way to go. I think like you say that people need to want to be decent to others. So many are toxic because they feel it's a reason for it and the other part is toxic as well. Being decent and kind is about not being toxic even if someone is toxic to you. Break the negative sprial. Personally I have enjoyed the discussions I had lately about politics and science in the off topic forums (didn't read any stuff I didn't take part in tbf).

But for me it's been nice while I'm playing less atm to have some interesting chats in off topic, then go ask dumb treaty questions on hazzas stream and then head off. Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean you have to take personal offense to that. It's kinda cool to talk about political stuff with the mindset of 'let's just explore this topic together' rather than anything else.

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[iNcog]

-- deleted post --

[Hawk_Girl]

I disagree with you agreeing with my sentiment. If you want to have a political discussion but not allow people who think differently express themselves, then that's not a discussion, it's a dialouge. I think that attitude is counter productive and also just boring.

[Kanoo]

There has always been negativety in the community. Off topic has become ridiculous and spills over into rest of the community in all aspects. That seems to happen with political discussions. People seem to hold onto their thoughts with that and try to talk about it everywhere. And in general people seem less polite in the world and internet. Maybe we need to really consider not allowing political discussions on a gaming forum.

I do think with DE3 this will improve as there will be much more game related discussions.

That only goes so far tho. People need to want to be decent to others.

I dont think banning topics are the way to go. I think like you say that people need to want to be decent to others. So many are toxic because they feel it's a reason for it and the other part is toxic as well. Being decent and kind is about not being toxic even if someone is toxic to you. Break the negative sprial. Personally I have enjoyed the discussions I had lately about politics and science in the off topic forums (didn't read any stuff I didn't take part in tbf).

But for me it's been nice while I'm playing less atm to have some interesting chats in off topic, then go ask dumb treaty questions on hazzas stream and then head off. Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean you have to take personal offense to that. It's kinda cool to talk about political stuff with the mindset of 'let's just explore this topic together' rather than anything else.

Agree with this sentiment. Unfortunately it's not possible to have those sorts of discussions because it gives bigots a foundation on which to stand. With very good moderation team we could have those discussions however the mod team doesn't have it in them to properly moderate forums for that. It's a very, very brittle task to oversee discussions like that and no one has either time nor inclination to do so.

I was all for free speech on the forums before but we can't have that anymore. Firstly the mods cannot support it properly. Secondly bigots exploit that. Thirdly the overall negativity on the forums and its culture just goes festers. There's more wrong than ESOC than just the bigotry I'm upset with, the whole thing is toxic.

and it isn't the discussions not being about the game (fuck you diarouga). it's the people who are the problem

hence this being good bye for me

Hey iNcog, I really think you’re one of the better people here on ESOC.
Having said that, I really hope to believe that things will only get better soon, mostly with the influx of new players and with it fresher ideas.
I would hope you stay for DE, and see for yourself if things are different. If things are still piss poor, then you can always leave then.

[Snow Lynx]

ps sorry and don't mind me, just killing time before a thread I opened elsewhere gets a proper response

Gonna miss your posts dude. Hope you come back eventually when DE has been out for a while, might attract some new users and freshen the place up a bit

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't want to start another drama, but I don't think I've been toxic toward you in these threads.

I simply strongly disagreed with your point of view on society, and explained that I didn't really care about the things you stand for. This can be upsetting, but I wouldn't say that I posted toxic messages in the past few days. Maybe rude sometimes, but if you think that some of my posts in this last week are toxic (except the one where I wrote "paki", not knowing that it was offensive), I'm genuinely interested in knowing which ones.

[Gendarme]

There has always been negativety in the community. Off topic has become ridiculous and spills over into rest of the community in all aspects. That seems to happen with political discussions. People seem to hold onto their thoughts with that and try to talk about it everywhere. And in general people seem less polite in the world and internet. Maybe we need to really consider not allowing political discussions on a gaming forum.

I do think with DE3 this will improve as there will be much more game related discussions.

That only goes so far tho. People need to want to be decent to others.

I dont think banning topics are the way to go. I think like you say that people need to want to be decent to others. So many are toxic because they feel it's a reason for it and the other part is toxic as well. Being decent and kind is about not being toxic even if someone is toxic to you. Break the negative sprial. Personally I have enjoyed the discussions I had lately about politics and science in the off topic forums (didn't read any stuff I didn't take part in tbf).

But for me it's been nice while I'm playing less atm to have some interesting chats in off topic, then go ask dumb treaty questions on hazzas stream and then head off. Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean you have to take personal offense to that. It's kinda cool to talk about political stuff with the mindset of 'let's just explore this topic together' rather than anything else.

Agree with this sentiment. Unfortunately it's not possible to have those sorts of discussions because it gives bigots a foundation on which to stand. With very good moderation team we could have those discussions however the mod team doesn't have it in them to properly moderate forums for that. It's a very, very brittle task to oversee discussions like that and no one has either time nor inclination to do so.

I was all for free speech on the forums before but we can't have that anymore. Firstly the mods cannot support it properly. Secondly bigots exploit that. Thirdly the overall negativity on the forums and its culture just goes festers. There's more wrong than ESOC than just the bigotry I'm upset with, the whole thing is toxic.

and it isn't the discussions not being about the game (fuck you diarouga). it's the people who are the problem

hence this being good bye for me

inb4 wellp 2.0

[Gendarme]

But yeah, that's why I had to leave too. There's just too much toxicity and bigotry here. What happened to basic human decency? I bet most people wouldn't say the bad things they write here directly to our faces.

[voigt1240]

I just woke up from My bad nap but . Sad to see you Are upset and considering leaving. I agree with most of what you say, but I think we should be careful to not throw insults at EAcHother. You Are smart and capable of having discussion not needed to be rooted like this. Hope you have a beer and a good weekend and hopefully we Will see you again on monday.

[Gendarme]

Also, I said this in the racism thread I created too, but I fear the moderation team doesn't have any kind of diversity. And by that, I don't just mean diversity of background and experience but also diversity of thought. You really do need more people who take a harsher stance on racism and bigotry and homophobia. But it feels like people like @HeadKilla who did that were driven out.

Ignore the racists. They are obviously being intentionally unreasonable equating USSR military references with their edgy nazi stuff. Anyone with a brain can see that you don't mean any offense with your name and they are just looking for any excuse to express their racist opinions. If it were up to me I would give them at least a one-week ban for the first offense, but since that isn't happening I suggest you use the block functionality on the forum. Don't let them ruin your experience, and please don't leave. You seem like a very nice guy with his heart at the right place.

Cheers, Comrade.

[Ashvin]

But yeah, that's why I had to leave too. There's just too much toxicity and bigotry here. What happened to basic human decency? I bet most people wouldn't say the bad things they write here directly to our faces.

but you actually never left

[Gendarme]

But yeah, that's why I had to leave too. There's just too much toxicity and bigotry here. What happened to basic human decency? I bet most people wouldn't say the bad things they write here directly to our faces.

but you actually never left

Says the guy who doesn't exist.