Discussion about off-topic & forum rules

[Dolan]

It's not bad to move in circles if the circles are growing larger.

[aaryngend]

It's not bad to move in circles if the circles are growing larger.

You know better than me that that discussion is going nowhere ... you just want to talk about it for the sake of talking about it. It's a dead end road, why not focus on the apparent problem at hand?
Being respectful and not hardcore flaming people here has nothing to do with your culture or your upbringing. Common courtesy is common courtesy after all.

Which is the focal point that Mitoe tried to make.

My personal guess is that the mod team is internally discussing changes right now. Changes to foster a more positive culture and greatly reduce the bickering and ad hominem.

[HUMMAN]

well since esoc is multicultural and world is getting globalized i cant see why multicultural society norms should not be adopted. You should propose a new code for multicultural platforms else only option is isolation.

[Dolan]

Being respectful and not hardcore flaming people here has nothing to do with your culture or your upbringing. Common courtesy is common courtesy after all.

Mitoe complained about lots of things, some of them in a veiled manner. That topic where commiessar, diarouga and incog had a skirmish on whether using the word "Paki" is offensive or not is probably one of the things that the OP referred to. So my post talks about the substance of that topic, it explains why such a conflict even appeared. It's the result of these factors I explained.

This is like group therapy, by explaining what underlies these conflicts, you can make people aware of where they are coming from and where others are coming from when they're saying something. I think it's useful, though it's probably boring, because this is a gaming forum and you'd think you don't have to write or think about complicated subjects just to solve a conflict on a gaming forum. Or maybe it's the perfect place to explain all this stuff, any random place would be good, including a gaming forum. And what's happening in real life, including what's happening in the USA right now, are kinda creating some pressure to clarify this subject of how this American mindset is trying to use globalisation to impose its own set of rules on the rest of the world. When the rest of the world might not want to adopt that set of rules and they might just tell Americans to keep it for themselves.

Idk, it's debatable and it's up to us if we want to adopt the American way of thinking about this stuff. Maybe we don't.

[Imperial Noob]

I feel that if everybody in this thread was at Escape studio with beers, instead of on the forum, most of the matters would be resolved within an hour.

[aaryngend]

Being respectful and not hardcore flaming people here has nothing to do with your culture or your upbringing. Common courtesy is common courtesy after all.

Mitoe complained about lots of things, some of them in a veiled manner. That topic where commiessar, diarouga and incog had a skirmish on whether using the word "Paki" is offensive or not is probably one of the things that the OP referred to. So my post talks about the substance of that topic, it explains why such a conflict even appeared. It's the result of these factors I explained.
This is like group therapy, by explaining what underlies these conflicts you can make people aware of where they are coming from and where others are coming from when they're saying something. I think it's useful.

Yes he did talk about a lot of things, then why are you ignoring 90% of what he was talking about? All you and some others do is keep picking that one incident (which is so recent it doesn't even leave a dent in the history of ESOC) and keep beating the dead horse.
Stop focusing at one thing and try to dissect the whole point of what Mitoe was trying to say. Else I will label you as a troll who is not interested in fixing the underlying issue and just wants to bathe in the misery, feasting on flamefests

well since esoc is multicultural and world is getting globalized i cant see why multicultural society norms should not be adopted. You should propose a new code for multicultural platforms else only option is isolation.

Except that culture has nothing to do with all of this. Rules are rules, no matter where you come from. Hell we could all have the same ethnicity and culture and we would still have the animosity lingering. Easy scapegoat.

[Dolan]

Yes he did, then why are you not talking about the other things? You and others keep picking one incident (which is so recent it doesn't even leave a dent in the history of ESOC) and keep beating the dead horse.

Because I talk about things I understand very well.

Stop focusing at one thing and try to dissect the whole point of what Mitoe was trying to say. Else I will label you as a troll who is not interested in fixing the underlying issue and just wants to bathe in the misery

I don't have to talk about everything Mitoe mentioned, especially if I don't have any opinion on the other stuff, like how they moderate their chat on the Twitch channel. I just talk about one subject that was part of the picture and which I think I understand very well and can provide some value by explaining what's going on with these conflicts over why some people from one part of the world think something is offensive, while others don't. If you make people gain insight into their conflicts, you can make a step towards solving those conficts. At least they could agree to disagree on those topics and move on. Or maybe they can understand that conflict (over whatever, including cultural norms) is not the worst thing that could happen. There are also some positive aspects of conflict, like it can also make you competitive. So why would you want to always avoid any kind of conflict at any cost, maybe you like to bathe in weakness.

[aaryngend]

Because I talk about things I understand very well.

Yeah.. no.

I don't have to talk about everything Mitoe mentioned, especially if I don't have any opinion on the other stuff, like how they moderate their chat on the Twitch channel. I just talk about one subject that was part of the picture and which I think I understand very well and can provide some value by explaining what's going on with these conflicts over why some people from one part of the world think something is offensive, while others don't.If you make people gain insight into their conflicts, you can make a step towards solving those conficts.

What have problems around the world to do with ESOC? ESOC is not UNICEF or Greenpeace. It seems that I have to remind you again, the topic at hand is the general negativity surrounding ESOC and its community

At least they could agree to disagree on those topics and move on. Or maybe they can understand that conflict (over whatever, including cultural norms) is not the worst that could happen. Conflict can also keep you on your toes, it can make you competitive.

Talk about it once, twice... maybe trice. But not a hundred times
I would label that as 'spamming'. Especially if nothing new comes out of it and you keep running in circles.

[helln00]

This is just my opinion but as a personal rule, I don't try to explain a complex phenomenon to other people unless I am also willing to provide solutions and ways to address it. Otherwise it will sound like a pretentious sermon of person who never wants to get their own skin in the game.

[Dolan]

What have problems around the world to do with ESOC? ESOC is not UNICEF or Greenpeace. It seems that I have to remind you again, the topic at hand is the general negativity surrounding ESOC and its community

It kinda has. These cultural wars over racial topics that have been going on lately in the USA have made lots of Americans very polarised about these issues. These events have radicalised them, they have made them feel even more strongly than before about these topics. So now, they're in a state of mind in which they scan the media and whatever content they're reading and react as if they're reacting to their own domestic conflicts, they're actually carrying their own internal conficts from their country over to the global scene. You don't have to be the Unicef to see this happening, it will happen everywhere, on Twitter, on Facebook, Whatsapp, or the ESOC forum because for some people it's like social media for gamers who play AOE3.

Talk about it once, twice... maybe trice. But not a hundred times
I would label that as 'spamming'. Especially if nothing new comes out of it and you keep running in circles.

I just reacted to a point made by someone else on the same page. So, if I saw someone else still talking about this, I assumed it's a subject that is still debated.

[forgrin]

I feel that if everybody in this thread was at Escape studio with beers, instead of on the forum, most of the matters would be resolved within an hour.

Probably because in person you can punch a racist.
User was warned for this post.

[Dolan]

@helln00
Maybe there's no solution, or maybe writing a complex explanation and making people understand what's going on is the solution, so they can make up their own minds about what they want to do about it.
Why would you wait on someone who explains to you what's going on to also tell you what you should do. Maybe they're not telling you any solution for a reason, so that people can use their own independent mind to come up with solutions that aren't just given to them on a platter.

It's best to let people work to find a solution, than to just give them one for free, coz they learn something and they appreciate the result better when it's the result of hardship, of going through the effort to negotiate one. It's their solution, they found it, they worked for it and they can explain how they got at it and how it should work.
If nobody found a solution, maybe they don't deserve one. A good explanation is already a lot of useful stuff given for free.

[Squamiger]

Can you guys stop with the religious and political talk here??

Looking at you @Dolan, @Squamiger and @voigt1240.
I think some of you guys just want to talk about the same shit over and over, and you use something else as an excuse to do so.

Just stop. This topic is not about ethnicity, politics or religion. This is the aoe3 General Board if I have to remind you.

Every time the same old discussion finally comes to an end, someone needs to regurgitate the same crap again. Keep moving in circles...

i'm not talking about politics, im talking about making a community, which means not putting up with people calling other people racial slurs

[aaryngend]

It kinda has. These cultural wars over racial topics that have been going on lately in the USA have made lots of Americans very polarised about these issues. These events have radicalised them, they have made them feel even more strongly than before about these topics. So now, they're in a state of mind in which they scan the media and whatever content they're reading and react as if they're reacting to their own domestic conflicts, they're actually carrying over their own internal conficts from their country over to the global scene. You don't have to be the Unicef to see this happening, it will happen everywhere, on Twitter, on Facebook, Whatsapp, or the ESOC forum because for some people it's like social media for gamers who play AOE3.

What has this to do with ESOC? This is an aoe3 forum. Not the place for this. There is nothing political about aoe3 so I don't see why one should bring real life matters or problems here. Why should every discussion or thing we read be polluted by opinions on social or political landscape?
You don't go to a cooking forum or website and talk about aztec mining there.

Do you even play the game? In my short time here I've never seen you post replays or talk about ingame strategies.

I just reacted to a point made by someone else on the same page. So, if I saw someone else still talking about this, I assumed it's a subject that is still debated.

You jumped at it like a hungry tiger
There is no use justifiying yourself, you clearly showed (at least to me) that you don't give a rats ass about this community and its wellbeing and just want controversy.

i'm not talking about politics, im talking about making a community, which means not putting up with people calling other people racial slurs

Is that your only problem? Who even did that, apart from 2-3 cases on this site ever?
There's a lot more going on on this site other than people using slurs.
If you want that to stop then.. a) make rules b) enforce rules and c) hand out bans or timeouts where necessary.

[helln00]

@helln00
Maybe there's no solution, or maybe writing a complex explanation and making people understand what's going on is the solution, so they can make up their own minds about what they want to do about it.
Why would you wait on someone who explains to you what's going on to also tell you what you should do. Maybe they're not telling you any solution for a reason, so that people can use their own independent mind to come up with solutions that aren't just given to them on a platter.

It's best to let people work to find a solution, than to just give them one for free, coz they learn something and they appreciate the result better when it's the result of hardship, of going through the effort to negotiate one. It's their solution, they found it, they worked for it and they can explain how they got at it and how it should work.
If nobody found a solution, maybe they don't deserve one. A good explanation is already a lot of useful stuff given for free.

I'm not saying that you should tell people what to do or not to make up their own mind. This is about responsibility in the transmission of knowledge and how to use it. Its like being a teacher, a subpar teacher would just say the content of the subject while a good teacher would guide and actually follow to the consequences of the materials being taught. What people do with that is up to them but from my experience if the person who is explaining something isnt themselves willing to deal with the consequences of what they are saying then its empty.

[Dolan]

What has this to do with ESOC? This is an aoe3 forum. Not the place for this. There is nothing political about aoe3 so I don't see why one should bring real life matters or problems here. Why should every discussion or thing we read be polluted by opinions on social or political landscape?
You don't go to a cooking forum or website and talk about aztec mining there.

Then why did that thread on aztec mining even get to the point of discussing political opinions? Was it me who did it? I think it was other users who complained the company that developed DE is changing big game features just for the sake of PC concerns. I think that was basically the essence of that discussion, if I'm not mistaken, I haven't read everything in that thread. So, if other users saw some politics in that decision, maybe they were justified in raising those points. Guess what, newsflash, a lot of stuff that seems innocent today happens for political reasons. It doesn't mean that you should obsessively try to seek political bias in every little thing, but sometimes people do insert some hidden political message even in places that seem innocent like a colouring book for kids or a video game. Just because they think that educating kids to believe certain things will lead in the future to a political reality those people would want. It's not always the case, but occasionally this happens.

Do you even play the game? In my short time here I've never seen you post replays or talk about ingame strategies.

Yeah, I don't play the game anymore, because Microsoft hasn't patched it to solve some issues that this game always had (lag from players with crap connections). It's still my fav game ever, even if I don't play it, I'm actually looking forward to trying DE, if it solved the problem of lag, it would be awesome, I could play the game again even if just for fun. But anyway, I don't have to come up with excuses on why I don't play the game now, there's lots of people who played it a lot more than me and got a lot higher level and still quit, just because they moved on with their lives or got into other games or something like that.
The reason why I got involved in this topic was because some people blamed the off-topic section for everything that Mitoe complained about in his original post. Since I'm a regular poster in the offtopic section and I didn't recognise wtf they were talking about, I came here to explain that their issues were not created by the offtopic section, that there was a whole lot of other issues that caused these conflicts. Some of them related to AOE3, some of them more general stuff, like the things I've talked about (ie, differences in mentality between Europe and the USA).

There is no use justifiying yourself, you clearly showed (at least to me) that you don't give a rats ass about this community and its wellbeing and just want controversy.

Ahum, right, I don't give a rat's ass about this community, that's why I worked for free to build it in 2015 and even came up with the ideas on lots of things that are part of ESOC today (like their Twitch channel). But if I don't care about this community, why did I come here to defend the offtopic section, which is part of this community? In the end, maybe it's natural for things to happen like this, all games and communities eventually decay or get to a point at which they have a conflict and they split. Or there are no new incoming players, so everyone gets bored of playing the same few players and doing the same strats. It's a 15 years old game, it's a wonder it even managed to keep an active community for so long, with almost zero support from Microsoft. Maybe everyone should just be proud they were part of keeping it alive for so long and realise that the world never stops moving on, in every way. And that whatever was achieved here won't be completely lost, everything gets recycled, reused or repurposed in ways you wouldn't even expect.

[Shikari]

Some people, just want to be a part of this thread lol even if they have nothing relevant to say.

[voigt1240]

Can you guys stop with the religious and political talk here??

Looking at you @Dolan, @Squamiger and @voigt1240.
I think some of you guys just want to talk about the same shit over and over, and you use something else as an excuse to do so.

Just stop. This topic is not about ethnicity, politics or religion. This is the aoe3 General Board if I have to remind you.

Every time the same old discussion finally comes to an end, someone needs to regurgitate the same crap again. Keep moving in circles...

When People Are talking about outlawing and silencing certain basic words on this forum i would say that it qualifies. If you read our conversation you would see it is relevant in regard to the general speech on this forum.

I am saying Surely we can't move past toxicity by shoving it under the rug, but rather find a middle ground. And as My last comment shows we agreed to Respectfully disagree.

Your comment just brings People back to the political talk and Even escalates it.

[aaryngend]

I am saying Surely we can't move past toxicity by shoving it under the rug,

Yes we can. For example, anybody who misbehaves gets a slap on the wrist. Sometimes prohibition and punishment are the only way out.

but rather find a middle ground.

There is no middle ground. Against the rules is against the rules. Clear insults are clear insults. It's clear that you and some others just want the status quo, you guys don't want anything to change.

Your comment just brings People back to the political talk and Even escalates it.

Eh no it doesn't. On the contrary. Further talking about it, like what you do for example, brings people back to it, escalating it once more! Especially if there is nothing more to say really.
I try to put an end to this nonsensical crap by highlighting what's wrong.
Some people just got way too used to having very lax moderation. You guys just wait, there is an end in sight concerning these shenanigans

[aaryngend]

Then why did that thread on aztec mining even get to the point of discussing political opinions?

Because some people literally did just that? If comradecomissar didn't chime in, we wouldn't be having this discussion. No one else had an issue with it, but he came in and went on and told his life story, creating new heated arguments and turning things sour.

The reason why I got involved in this topic was because some people blamed the off-topic section for everything that Mitoe complained about in his original post. Since I'm a regular poster in the offtopic section and I didn't recognise wtf they were talking about, I came here to explain that their issues were not created by the offtopic section, that there was a whole lot of other issues that caused these conflicts.

They didn't only blame the Off Topic section, they were just feeling that Off Topic-"sectionesque" content was starting to swap over to the general forums. So maybe it could have had something to do with it? Was more of a guess, not a statement.

Ahum, right, I don't give a rat's ass about this community, that's why I worked for free to build it in 2015 and even came up with the ideas on lots of things that are part of ESOC today (like their Twitch channel).

What an idea. I'm sure without you ESOC would not have a Twitch channel today right? Because no one else would've come up with such a brilliant idea of creating a twitch channel for a gaming community

But if I don't care about this community, why did I come here to defend the offtopic section, which is part of this community?

Because you love Off Topic and arguing, what else. If you truly cared about the community, you would be proactive in trying to limit unfruitful and negative discussions and going against some of your own beliefs for the better of the community.

In the end, maybe it's natural for things to happen like this, all games and communities eventually decay or get to a point at which they have a conflict and they split. Or there are no new incoming players, so everyone gets bored of playing the same few players and doing the same strats. It's a 15 years old game, it's a wonder it even managed to keep an active community for so long, with almost zero support from Microsoft. Maybe everyone should just be proud they were part of keeping it alive for so long and realise that the world never stops moving on, in every way. And that whatever was achieved here won't be completely lost, everything gets recycled, reused or repurposed in ways you wouldn't even expect.

Do you realize that we are a month away from aoe3:DE release? This will be the biggest resurgence after the game first came out. Talking about "how things end" seems kind of ironic to me, given the situation.

[Goodspeed]

I remember trying to get staff to separate the two into different categories because I didn't agree that ESOC Talk is "Off topic" and we were seeing very little overlap in the people who posted in those forums. And of course this scapegoating was pretty predictable. The separation didn't happen, and indeed we're now seeing the two get lumped together even though they have very little to do with each other, for the sake of a false narrative.

I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here. Are you suggesting that that Real Life Discussion is the real issue and that it's being unfairly used to smear Off Topic as a whole? Even if that's true, I don't see how that substantively changes the argument that's being made (that the ESOC forums foster toxicity).

No I'm simply saying that real-life discussion is a different forum with different posters than ESOC talk but lumped in with it in the same category. I don't know why we call ESOC talk off topic. The point is that the existence of the real-life discussion board, or the political discussion that takes place there, has nothing to do with most of the drama that happens here. It's typically either in the AoE3 forums or in ESOC talk. Or in twitch chat or ESO itself, apparently, but I wouldn't know about that.

Maybe the ESOC forums foster toxicity. But that isn't because we allow political discussion in the real-life discussion board. Nothing "bled over" from there. In this case for example, the thread was about Native Americans in DE and pretty naturally became about politics when people started blaming "PC culture" for the changes. Important to note is that the people who did that were AoE3 forum regulars, not OT regulars. And yes, maybe that kind of discussion should be moderated in the AoE3 forums. I agree that it's not the place for that. But in OT we tend to be able to discuss politics without it turning into a flame war.

I'd like to reiterate Dolan's question: Which animosities are getting carried over from the real-life offtopic section to other parts of the AOE3 forums?

The most obvious recent example is the Native American mining thread, and the same group of 2-3 trolls from Off Topic who've been turning every thread (including this one) into a debate over whether it's ok to use racial insults. They post ridiculous stuff, people feel obliged to respond, and the conversation turns ugly very quickly. It's obvious to me that most of those guys would leave ESOC if we deleted Off Topic or at least rolled back the Mad Max, "anything goes" moderation policy, and I think that would be an overwhelmingly positive development for this community.

Which 3 trolls are you talking about?
The mining thread drama wasn't in any way caused by OT regulars. Going through the pages of that thread, the only OT regular who participated in the argument was gibson, and he actually kept trying to make it not about politics. Check your facts.
viewtopic.php?f=982&t=21343

If you're talking about Ivan, the forum he most posted in historically is AoE3 General. He's been gone a while (haven't seen him in OT anyway) and he clearly just came back to post about DE.

So no, the removal of real-life discussion or the banning of political discussion there would have had zero positive effect on that thread.

I don't think anyone would argue that Off Topic becoming an alt-right cesspool ...

The majority of OT is left of center on the political spectrum. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... wanalytics

There was literally a post last week where someone was talking about how great the Nazi Party was.

I seem to have missed this post. Please link it.
When you talk about politics, the nazi party can come up. Sometimes people can be positive about certain aspects of it. That doesn't make them nazis. Communist governments have claimed many lives in the past, but that doesn't mean that anyone who expresses anything positive about communism (e.g. me) is automatically also in favor of genocide.

If you don't think that kind of stuff negatively impacts community culture, I frankly think you're being naive.

It might impact community culture in the OT forum, but that has proven relatively resilient compared to community culture in the AoE3 or ESOC talk forums. Real-life discussion is actually quite mild when it comes to toxicity compared to the others. It turns out people get really passionate about AoE3. In OT it's an exchange of ideas, and there's not as much of a personal stake in it.

This got a bit long but the main point is that there is almost no overlap between people who participate in political discussion in the real-life discussion forum and people who cause drama in the other forums. The latest drama is actually a perfect example, contrary to what some people who clearly don't read the actual off topic forum seem to believe.

[Ashvin]

I feel that if everybody in this thread was at Escape studio with beers, instead of on the forum, most of the matters would be resolved within an hour.

Probably because in person you can punch a racist.
User was warned for this post.

WOW

EDIT: surprised because what he said wasn't offensive but simply true. People usually don't easily say offensive stuff because they can get into problems and can't escape as easily as one would online.

[harcha]

Yeah but this isn't the first time violence is implied in these discussions, it has to stop.

[voigt1240]

I feel that if everybody in this thread was at Escape studio with beers, instead of on the forum, most of the matters would be resolved within an hour.

Probably because in person you can punch a racist.
User was warned for this post.

WOW

EDIT: surprised because what he said wasn't offensive but simply true. People usually don't easily say offensive stuff because they can get into problems and can't escape as easily as one would online.

Agreed. Was probably misinterpreted as advocating violence. Was in bad taste either way.

[harcha]

It can be interpreted in many ways, I just think it must stop. Time to stop escalating this argument.