Discussion about off-topic & forum rules

[rsy]

Pathetic. Seriously just pathetic

[[Armag] diarouga]

I feel that if everybody in this thread was at Escape studio with beers, instead of on the forum, most of the matters would be resolved within an hour.

Probably because in person you can punch a racist.
User was warned for this post.

WOW

EDIT: surprised because what he said wasn't offensive but simply true. People usually don't easily say offensive stuff because they can get into problems and can't escape as easily as one would online.

I don't think that's because people can get "into problems". Nobody is going to punch you because you're offensive. I think people get along IRL because they don't take the other opinions offensively. For instance, I'm 99% sure that this racism discussion would have ended with a "let's agree to disagree" IRL. Online however, you feel like you have to answer to make your point and be right in front of a public, and if someone pulls a good argument, people feel humiliated and become agressive.

[chronique]

I was in holiday the last two week, wtf is happening during this 2 week? Why there are so many weird thread like this one ^^.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I was in holiday the last two week, wtf is happening during this 2 week? Why there are so many weird thread like this one ^^.

It all started with the DE announcement where devs said that they removed the mining mechanic from Iro and Sioux. I claimed that it was a political change to please an oppressed minority but that it was bad because it affected the game in a negative way.
Some people disagreed with me and it quickly escalated, and we got 20 pages thread about racism in ESOC.

[Riotcoke]

I was in holiday the last two week, wtf is happening during this 2 week? Why there are so many weird thread like this one ^^.

Just idiots arguing about the same topic over and over

[Goodspeed]

I was in holiday the last two week, wtf is happening during this 2 week? Why there are so many weird thread like this one ^^.

Just idiots arguing about the same topic over and over

You keep saying this. Maybe, as a staff member, especially in this thread, you should be more reserved in your usage of the word "idiots" to describe community members. This casual namecalling is exactly the kind of thing that sneaks in when you have a toxic culture, and is all the more destructive coming from staff.

[Riotcoke]

It's just people going in circles about the same dull topic, what are they then ?

[Good ol Ivan]

It's just people going in circles about the same dull topic, what are they then ?

That applies to pretty much every conceivable topic. I mean there is a 800 page long thread about American elections in the OT section.
And I think racism and political correctness scaring people away are a pretty interesting topics, even if that means I will be the target/reason of many complaints.
Plus it is pretty ironic you are complaining about others going in circles when you are doing the exact same thing.
I understand that you'd rather have this argument in another thread, but I agree with gs, it doesn't mean you should be calling them names. And yeah that's coming from me.
Just let people talk about what they want, and don't step in if you have nothing to share.

[Dolan]

Then why did that thread on aztec mining even get to the point of discussing political opinions?

Because some people literally did just that? If comradecomissar didn't chime in, we wouldn't be having this discussion. No one else had an issue with it, but he came in and went on and told his life story, creating new heated arguments and turning things sour.

Commie-sar is a b8ing troll. Idk how ppl can be so gullible and take that cheap b8. It's 2020, ffs.

They didn't only blame the Off Topic section, they were just feeling that Off Topic-"sectionesque" content was starting to swap over to the general forums. So maybe it could have had something to do with it? Was more of a guess, not a statement.

I think this impression that the offtopic somehow spread flaming across the whole site came from people who have a very vague image of that subforum. Since they don't read much from it or post there, they identify the offtopic section with that "ESOC Chat" subsection of it, which is basically just chatter, memes, banter and all kinds of ESOC gossip. It's a completely different dish from the other subsection (the real-life one), where it's mostly somewhat more serious discussions.

What an idea. I'm sure without you ESOC would not have a Twitch channel today right? Because no one else would've come up with such a brilliant idea of creating a twitch channel for a gaming community

I'm sure they would have got one eventually. But that was in 2015. You might not imagine that this is possible today, but back then I was the only one who proposed the idea of creating an ESOC Twitch channel and my idea was dismissed as unnecessary. The other admin board members argued that it would take away from the audience of other high-level or popular streamers and we can't afford to antagonise them. Yeah, imagine that, people actually thought it was a bad idea in 2015 and I had to actually fight to get this idea accepted. Anyway, I don't want to sing praises to myself here, by describing what were my contributions back then, but there are some people who appreciated them. For example I came up with the idea of having our own self-hosted brackets, instead of using those generic ones from Challonge. And I wrote the first version of those brackets (well it was based on a library and it was a messy and hacked solution, because we didn't control the backend of the site, so it was a bit improvised and updated manually but it worked).

Because you love Off Topic and arguing, what else. If you truly cared about the community, you would be proactive in trying to limit unfruitful and negative discussions and going against some of your own beliefs for the better of the community.

I'm not part of the current ESOC team, why would I try to do their job. I mean, you're asking me to babysit the forum, when they have their own team that has a lot more authority over users than me, considering they also have the banhammer.

Do you realize that we are a month away from aoe3:DE release? This will be the biggest resurgence after the game first came out. Talking about "how things end" seems kind of ironic to me, given the situation.

Idk if it's going to be like that. Never underestimate Microsoft's well-known, traditional talent of screwing up any launch event of their products. With Microsoft it's always like this: the first iteration is a failure that barely works but the ideas are great, the next iterations keep improving until, from the 3rd one onwards, the product actually gets decent. This ESOC project will eventually end or will have to change its name and brand, because there will be no more ESO at some point. If they make new servers, they're not gonna name them after Ensemble Studios, a now-defunct studio.

[forgrin]

What I said about "punching a racist" is a play on the "punch a Nazi" meme, not advocating violence.

@[Armag] diarouga If you, Ivan, and Commissar were at a bar, with you and Ivan saying the same things about "Paki," I don't think you'd get hurt but certainly Commissar isn't going to the bar, or anywhere, with you anymore, because what you said displays a complete lack of empathy. The real answer isn't that you'll get punched, it's that you'd have no one to go to the bar with. Except Ivan.

[[Armag] diarouga]

@[Armag] diarouga If you, Ivan, and Commissar were at a bar, with you and Ivan saying the same things about "Paki," I don't think you'd get hurt but certainly Commissar isn't going to the bar, or anywhere, with you anymore, because what you said displays a complete lack of empathy. The real answer isn't that you'll get punched, it's that you'd have no one to go to the bar with. Except Ivan.

Comrad and I wouldn't go to the bar anymore indeed.
But we've never been friends, so I wouldn't go to the bar with him in the first place.

The point is that what happens in the forums wouldn't happen IRL, but not because people are afraid.

[fightinfrenchman]

Dolan actually had a good post somewhere in this thread defending off topic and calling out people scapegoating it. I'm too lazy to find it though.

Anyone who wants to get rid of off topic is cringe, to me

[Goodspeed]

Yeah it's pretty cringe ngl

[forgrin]

@[Armag] diarouga If you, Ivan, and Commissar were at a bar, with you and Ivan saying the same things about "Paki," I don't think you'd get hurt but certainly Commissar isn't going to the bar, or anywhere, with you anymore, because what you said displays a complete lack of empathy. The real answer isn't that you'll get punched, it's that you'd have no one to go to the bar with. Except Ivan.

Comrad and I wouldn't go to the bar anymore indeed.
But we've never been friends, so I wouldn't go to the bar with him in the first place.

The point is that what happens in the forums wouldn't happen IRL, but not because people are afraid.

The "bar" is ESOC. Your words are pushing people away from the community. Do I have to explain every metaphor with you?

[fightinfrenchman]

@[Armag] diarouga If you, Ivan, and Commissar were at a bar, with you and Ivan saying the same things about "Paki," I don't think you'd get hurt but certainly Commissar isn't going to the bar, or anywhere, with you anymore, because what you said displays a complete lack of empathy. The real answer isn't that you'll get punched, it's that you'd have no one to go to the bar with. Except Ivan.

Comrad and I wouldn't go to the bar anymore indeed.
But we've never been friends, so I wouldn't go to the bar with him in the first place.

The point is that what happens in the forums wouldn't happen IRL, but not because people are afraid.

The "bar" is ESOC. Your words are pushing people away from the community. Do I have to explain every metaphor with you?

Who is the bartender

[forgrin]

Show hidden quotes

@[Armag] diarouga If you, Ivan, and Commissar were at a bar, with you and Ivan saying the same things about "Paki," I don't think you'd get hurt but certainly Commissar isn't going to the bar, or anywhere, with you anymore, because what you said displays a complete lack of empathy. The real answer isn't that you'll get punched, it's that you'd have no one to go to the bar with. Except Ivan.

Comrad and I wouldn't go to the bar anymore indeed.
But we've never been friends, so I wouldn't go to the bar with him in the first place.

The point is that what happens in the forums wouldn't happen IRL, but not because people are afraid.

The "bar" is ESOC. Your words are pushing people away from the community. Do I have to explain every metaphor with you?

Who is the bartender

The Ear, of course.

[fightinfrenchman]

I don't get enough tips

[aaryngend]

Going through the pages of that thread, the only OT regular who participated in the argument was gibson, and he actually kept trying to make it not about politics. Check your facts.
viewtopic.php?f=982&t=21343

Which 3 trolls are you talking about?
The mining thread drama wasn't in any way caused by OT regulars.

Correct. They didn't start it. But they took the drama and spun it even further.

So no, the removal of real-life discussion or the banning of political discussion there would have had zero positive effect on that thread.

How so? comrades points were all about real life man. If that would be banned from aoe3 general boards, the drama wouldn't have ensued. Simple as that.
Aoe3 is about the colonization era of european civilizations, pretty much enslaving other continents... By that logic, we should maybe call for a ban of the whole franchise.. I mean the whole game idolizes imperialism

This got a bit long but the main point is that there is almost no overlap between political discussion in the real-life discussion, and the other forums. The latest drama is actually a perfect example, contrary to what some people who clearly don't read the actual off topic forum seem to believe.

I agree but I think you have one little flaw in your observation: Seperation.
There are two different points that people gripe over, not just one.
a) Animosity and negativity inside the community
b) close to no moderation and no limit of what is allowed to talk about on the boards

Please don't lump them together only because 1-2 people said that perhaps attitudes and posting behaviour from Off Topic carried over.
In return, we won't blame Off Topic for all of this drama (lumping them together) it's clear at this point that Off Topic is not the main culprit.

You were right in your view that the ban or limitation of political talks (or Off Topic) for example won't stop people from flaming because of hurt egos or people still holding grudges.
That's definitely a people problem, not a moderator problem. Someone has to start (being positive) and hopefully it spreads like a wildfire so the animosity comes down to a minimum.
All the moderators can do is to rigorously enforce the rules.

[Goodspeed]

Going through the pages of that thread, the only OT regular who participated in the argument was gibson, and he actually kept trying to make it not about politics. Check your facts.
viewtopic.php?f=982&t=21343

Which 3 trolls are you talking about?
The mining thread drama wasn't in any way caused by OT regulars.

Correct. They didn't start it. But they took the drama and spun it even further.

So no, the removal of real-life discussion or the banning of political discussion there would have had zero positive effect on that thread.

How so? comrades points were all about real life man. If that would be banned from aoe3 general boards, the drama wouldn't have ensued. Simple as that.
Aoe3 is about the colonization era of european civilizations, pretty much enslaving other continents... By that logic, we should maybe call for a ban of the whole franchise.. I mean the whole game idolizes imperialism

This got a bit long but the main point is that there is almost no overlap between political discussion in the real-life discussion, and the other forums. The latest drama is actually a perfect example, contrary to what some people who clearly don't read the actual off topic forum seem to believe.

I agree but I think you have one little flaw in your observation: Seperation.
There are two different points that people gripe over, not just one.
a) Animosity and negativity inside the community
b) close to no moderation and no limit of what is allowed to talk about on the boards

Please don't lump them together only because 1-2 people said that perhaps attitudes and posting behaviour from Off Topic carried over.
In return, we won't blame Off Topic for all of this drama (lumping them together) it's clear at this point that Off Topic is not the main culprit.

You were right in your view that the ban or limitation of political talks (or Off Topic) for example won't stop people from flaming because of hurt egos or people still holding grudges.
That's definitely a people problem, not a moderator problem. Someone has to start (being positive) and hopefully it spreads like a wildfire so the animosity comes down to a minimum.
All the moderators can do is to rigorously enforce the rules.

You may have misunderstood me. My point is that removing the real-life discussion section or banning political discussion there (as in, banning it in the real-life discussion forum) would have little to no effect on the amount of toxicity in the AoE3 community. My issue is with people scapegoating specifically that section of the forums as if it has anything to do with the current drama. I'm not saying that the current mod policy for the AoE3 forums is perfect. I agree that political discussion has no place there. That's what the OT forum is for.

Please don't lump them together only because 1-2 people said that perhaps attitudes and posting behaviour from Off Topic carried over.
In return, we won't blame Off Topic for all of this drama (lumping them together) it's clear at this point that Off Topic is not the main culprit.

To you and me, maybe. But clearly not to everyone.

[fightinfrenchman]

I'm not saying that the current mod policy for the AoE3 forums is perfect.

I can't even find what the mod policy is tbh

[aaryngend]

I'm not saying that the current mod policy for the AoE3 forums is perfect.

I can't even find what the mod policy is tbh

Here you are:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5351

[fightinfrenchman]

I'm not saying that the current mod policy for the AoE3 forums is perfect.

I can't even find what the mod policy is tbh

Here you are:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5351

These rules are either not current or are just ignored

[Good ol Ivan]

What I said about "punching a racist" is a play on the "punch a Nazi" meme, not advocating violence.

@[Armag] diarouga If you, Ivan, and Commissar were at a bar, with you and Ivan saying the same things about "Paki," I don't think you'd get hurt but certainly Commissar isn't going to the bar, or anywhere, with you anymore, because what you said displays a complete lack of empathy. The real answer isn't that you'll get punched, it's that you'd have no one to go to the bar with. Except Ivan.

Tbh I would probably be drinking and having fun with Caleb, Lejend, Nolan and Diarouga lol
Plus I really doubt the average ESOc soyboy who takes pride on how good he is at punching people he disagrees with has ever been in any real fights in his life. But whatever, I don't think this argument will lead us anywhere and I don't want to make it too personal.

I just can't understand why you people are so sensible about it, to me it sounds like a very toxic mindset you were forced into accepting since childhood.
Hell, I remember once I saw a dark skinned friend of mine arguing with a Jew he just met in a party, whom he tried to convince that the number of victims in the holocaust couldn't be more than 100,000. At the very beggining the Jewish guy got somewhat pissed off, but at no point he thought it was a good idea to punch him.
Quite the contrary, they shared their points of views, disagreed with each other, but at the very end befriended each other anyway.
Not saying I agree with what my friend said, but what exactly would they have achieved fighting each other? If you have the moral superiority to think that you can enforce your views with violence, then you are just encouraging people to react violently as well. People wouldn't just say "Oh sorry you were right" after you punch them. They'd punch you back lol.

And I could agree you should be ready to react violently If, say, some stranger in the street you don't even know called you or your friend a Paki, here I could agree that the person is clearly asking for a fight.
But if you are drinking with someone and you are both having a good time, why would it matter to banter a bit with slurs? If he uses a slur then you use a slur yourself, or make a joke about his weight or whatever. People who can't take this kind of humor usually think way too highly of themselves to be any fun to hang out with in the first place.

Not saying this is what happened between commissar and me tho, and frankly I'm kinda tired of talking about it

[fightinfrenchman]

whom he tried to convince that the number of victims in the holocaust couldn't be more than 100,000.

Not saying I agree with what my friend said, but

Can you definitively say you disagree with that statement?

[Good ol Ivan]

whom he tried to convince that the number of victims in the holocaust couldn't be more than 100,000.

Not saying I agree with what my friend said, but

Can you definitively say you disagree with that statement?

Yeah, I definitely disagree.
But please let's not talk about this, I feel like this is a very sensible topic, and judging from the attitude of most posters here, I definitely think we should avoid it.