Surely you mean many and not most?
US Politics Megathread
- harcha
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Re: US Politics Megathread
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
- princeofcarthage
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Re: US Politics Megathread
Classic goodspeed and duckzilla. Will through out an opinion/assumption as fact and when asked for proof will cower. GS also did the same thing during that abortion discussion when he posted some not so thought out suggestions and then fails to elaborate them.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
Re: US Politics Megathread
It's very likely that the Overton window is going to start moving left imo. In fact it probably has been since 2008. 40 years of neoliberal policies have obviously made the world a shittier place than it could've been for almost everyone, and people are waking up to that fact.
In the 70s, people realized 40 years of New Deal politics was causing stagnating growth and they collectively moved to the economic right. Now, they've realized that economic growth doesn't actually help them if combined with rising inequality, and the opposite is going to happen. That, or people let go of reality altogether and embrace Trumpism. Personally I think that's unlikely, but possible.
We live in a very interesting time politically. Globally, neoliberalism is on its last legs and a new political order is going to rise. What it will be, who knows, but I'm here for it.
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: US Politics Megathread
Yeah so obviously most aren't left wing. Dumb word salad post on your partDolan wrote: β25 May 2022, 05:54It's not that controversial a term. It's usually that part of society that steers things, whether it's in politics, business, media, academiafightinfrenchman wrote: β25 May 2022, 05:29Can you define what you mean by "elite"Dolan wrote: β25 May 2022, 05:00It's also possible for the Overton window to move left while reality keeps moving right.
Like what people believe, what they support, what's being talked about in the media, the superstructure, the DC elites could keep pushing neolibrul stuff, while the base has become disconnected from that and is moving in a more violent direction.
But at this point left and right have shapeshifted so much they look like complete opposites of their originals.
Like the right used to represent the elites in the original meaning, but now the media, the elites mostly push progressive neoliberal talking points. And most elites today are leftwing.
So the right in the West has sought refuge in "populism", basically identifying with "the forgotten ones", blue-collar classes etc. These labels have mutated beyond recognition.
Dromedary Scone Mix is not Alone Mix
Re: US Politics Megathread
For me to explain why I wrote that would take a lot of time compared to a one-line quip, which makes it a case of Brandolini's lawfightinfrenchman wrote: β25 May 2022, 07:35Yeah so obviously most aren't left wing. Dumb word salad post on your part
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- Gendarme
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Re: US Politics Megathread
Id also say they are not left wing, but 'the elites' do a lot of virtue signaling publically to give off the impression that they are not our capitalist overlords, even though they very much are.fightinfrenchman wrote: β25 May 2022, 07:35Yeah so obviously most aren't left wing. Dumb word salad post on your part
Re: US Politics Megathread
Murrica: the country where visitors need to read a 1000 page book on how to behave when you get pulled over by a cop just to avoid being shot on the spot.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.
Beati pauperes spiritu.
Beati pauperes spiritu.
Re: US Politics Megathread
Something like that. It doesn't even matter what the elites are, whether they are "left", "right", "center", or whether they are any of these on Monday or Thursday, but not on Friday when they do their taxes and they all become cut-throat capitalists for a few hours.RefluxSemantic wrote: β25 May 2022, 10:23Id also say they are not left wing, but 'the elites' do a lot of virtue signaling publically to give off the impression that they are not our capitalist overlords, even though they very much are.fightinfrenchman wrote: β25 May 2022, 07:35Yeah so obviously most aren't left wing. Dumb word salad post on your partShow hidden quotes
What the elites say matters more than what they do, because it contributes to an effect called "the spiral of silence". It creates an impression on the whole society that their opinions are the only ones that matter because they're "the experts", "the knowledgeable", and because they're actually more intelligent and persuasive than most of the plebs. If they signal woke, leftwing values, that part of the population that is on the spectrum of personality traits that value pro-social behaviours (aka they're vulnerable to the social desirability bias) will get the message that these are the in values currently. And that part of the population (of elite followers and subscribers) will adopt those values or pay lip service to them in what they say publicly.
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: US Politics Megathread
This depends on a specific definition of "elites" that excludes a ton of openly right wing elites as if they just don't exist for some reasonRefluxSemantic wrote: β25 May 2022, 10:23Id also say they are not left wing, but 'the elites' do a lot of virtue signaling publically to give off the impression that they are not our capitalist overlords, even though they very much are.fightinfrenchman wrote: β25 May 2022, 07:35Yeah so obviously most aren't left wing. Dumb word salad post on your partShow hidden quotes
Dromedary Scone Mix is not Alone Mix
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- Howdah
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Re: US Politics Megathread
Listening to Guns by Quelle Chris
If I were a petal
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young childβs
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
And plucked, or moth, plucked
From flowers or pollen froth
To wither on a young childβs
Display. Fetch
Me a ribbon, they, all dead
Things scream.
Re: US Politics Megathread
Re: this talk on neolibrulism
There are many IFs on how the situation could evolve.
1. If energy and staple products prices keep exploding, there could be popular uprisings everywhere. And you can't revolt against the global price of oil or fertilisers, because they're not controlled by your government.
2. If the stock market gets a "correction" (some would call it crash), it could set off a chain reaction, freezing money flows across economies. What would you revolt against here? Market sentiment?
3. If the housing market bubble gets burst once again, another chain reaction on banks, capital available to fund other stuff also freezing, which means no money to invest/fund/grow. Sure, cheaper houses but since almost nobody will afford them anyway, they're just there for the usual hyenas ready to buy low and sell high later.
4. If the war situation keeps disrupting economies around the globe, more undeveloped countries likely to collapse, unable to borrow to keep the circus going, more regions going into starvation mode.
Any of these could push governments to get involved directly in the economy, with price controls, nationalisation of energy production, capital controls, relocation of critical manufacturing back in the country, etc.
Obviously in such scenarios, you can forget about "growth" or "a better distribution of profits to redress inequalities", because there would be less money to go around. And distributing more of less around won't have any magically awesome effect on the economy when everyone affords less anyway and economic activity shrinks.
It's like in communism, when wages were apparently not really low, but there was nothing to buy anyway, because the economy was managed according to political ideology (ie, keep everyone at as much an equal level as possible).
We're gonna have to relearn wtf an economy is and how it can be made to work, but that won't look much like what was before.
Because we've obviously hit a wall when it comes to the viability of financial capitalism, more than 30 years after communism went the way of nazism.
There are many IFs on how the situation could evolve.
1. If energy and staple products prices keep exploding, there could be popular uprisings everywhere. And you can't revolt against the global price of oil or fertilisers, because they're not controlled by your government.
2. If the stock market gets a "correction" (some would call it crash), it could set off a chain reaction, freezing money flows across economies. What would you revolt against here? Market sentiment?
3. If the housing market bubble gets burst once again, another chain reaction on banks, capital available to fund other stuff also freezing, which means no money to invest/fund/grow. Sure, cheaper houses but since almost nobody will afford them anyway, they're just there for the usual hyenas ready to buy low and sell high later.
4. If the war situation keeps disrupting economies around the globe, more undeveloped countries likely to collapse, unable to borrow to keep the circus going, more regions going into starvation mode.
Any of these could push governments to get involved directly in the economy, with price controls, nationalisation of energy production, capital controls, relocation of critical manufacturing back in the country, etc.
Obviously in such scenarios, you can forget about "growth" or "a better distribution of profits to redress inequalities", because there would be less money to go around. And distributing more of less around won't have any magically awesome effect on the economy when everyone affords less anyway and economic activity shrinks.
It's like in communism, when wages were apparently not really low, but there was nothing to buy anyway, because the economy was managed according to political ideology (ie, keep everyone at as much an equal level as possible).
We're gonna have to relearn wtf an economy is and how it can be made to work, but that won't look much like what was before.
Because we've obviously hit a wall when it comes to the viability of financial capitalism, more than 30 years after communism went the way of nazism.
- princeofcarthage
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Re: US Politics Megathread
Where teenagers have access to automatic assault rifles
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
Re: US Politics Megathread
Taken to the extreme, neither way really works. History has shown as much. But we are currently at one of the extremes; Moving left with our economic policy is almost certainly going to improve matters. Given where we are, trading growth for equality is a good thing, to an extent. I think governments are unlikely to start nationalizing things left and right, but would expect tax systems to get more progressive (i.e. higher taxes for the rich), stronger unions, bigger social safety nets, cheaper health care, cheaper education etc. These are all things that will lead to a stronger middle class, which is what almost every country that embraced neoliberal politics needs right now.Dolan wrote: β25 May 2022, 16:07Any of these could push governments to get involved directly in the economy, with price controls, nationalisation of energy production, capital controls, relocation of critical manufacturing back in the country, etc.
Obviously in such scenarios, you can forget about "growth" or "a better distribution of profits to redress inequalities", because there would be less money to go around. And distributing more of less around won't have any magically awesome effect on the economy when everyone affords less anyway and economic activity shrinks.
It's like in communism, when wages were apparently not really low, but there was nothing to buy anyway, because the economy was managed according to political ideology (ie, keep everyone at as much an equal level as possible).
We're gonna have to relearn wtf an economy is and how it can be made to work, but that won't look much like what was before.
Because we've obviously hit a wall when it comes to the viability of financial capitalism, more than 30 years after communism went the way of nazism.
Politics though is ultimately more of a discussion of what's popular than what works. Even if moving away from neoliberal policies and more towards new deal policies wouldn't improve matters, it's likely to be very popular at least in the coming decade(s) because the relevant generations have seen first hand that the other way doesn't work. New deal policies are obvious and intuitive answers to the problem of rising inequality, so they will naturally be popular. Hence my prediction that the Overton window is going to start/continue moving left.
Of course, it's easy to move too far in the other direction. This seems to have happened during the new deal era as well as during the current neoliberal era. Whatever happens from here, it doesn't seem a stretch to predict that we will collectively overcompensate.
Re: US Politics Megathread
new deal didn't go far enough. also neoliberalism is a right-wing ideology
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: US Politics Megathread
Can't wait for this extremely productive debate to solve some real issues
Dromedary Scone Mix is not Alone Mix
Re: US Politics Megathread
Higher taxes would destroy economic activity even more, especially on this backdrop of rising inflation and general worsening business environment. They'd just close shop, cash out and hit the farms, living on their own self-produced supply. Then millions of jobs would go down the drain. And it's surely not the government that will employ them. This varies case by case, of course, in some Euro countries taxes are already pretty high so there's not much headway for raising them without completely choking those firms.Goodspeed wrote: β25 May 2022, 19:43Taken to the extreme, neither way really works. [...] we are currently at one of the extremes; Moving left with our economic policy is almost certainly going to improve matters.
Given where we are, trading growth for equality is a good thing, to an extent. I think governments are unlikely to start nationalizing things left and right, but would expect tax systems to get more progressive (i.e. higher taxes for the rich), stronger unions, bigger social safety nets, cheaper health care, cheaper education etc. These are all things that will lead to a stronger middle class, which is what almost every country that embraced neoliberal politics needs right now.
The new deal was a Keynesian program that was meant to combat deflation. Basically the government jumped in, as the economic depression wreaked havoc and economic activity was shrinking fast, and created artificial economic activity (large public projects) to counter plummeting supply and avoid a deflationary spiral. We're in a different situation now, as inflation is rising everywhere as a result of the war in Ukraine making fossil fuels prices soar.Politics though is ultimately more of a discussion of what's popular than what works. Even if moving away from neoliberal policies and more towards new deal policies wouldn't improve matters, it's likely to be very popular at least in the coming decade(s) because the relevant generations have seen first hand that the other way doesn't work. New deal policies are obvious and intuitive answers to the problem of rising inequality, so they will naturally be popular. Hence my prediction that the Overton window is going to start/continue moving left.
Publicly funded projects don't necessarily reduce inequality, usually they fund low-paying unqualified jobs, like for those people who lay asphalt on roads. It's not like the government will pay them 5000 bucks to do that, or else they'd see janitors leave their jobs and scrambling to get those high-paying unqualified jobs.
The new deal era was very different from now. For example, the USA was on the gold standard, which severely limited their monetary policy. They couldn't just print more money to fight deflation, they had to suspend the gold standard and allow the dollar to float freely. Very different set of circumstances. Then the war started and the US went into war economy mode. Then after the war, there was the usual post-war optimism which always leads to economic boom, as motivation to rebuild, replace, consume increases.Of course, it's easy to move too far in the other direction. This seems to have happened during the new deal era as well as during the current neoliberal era. Whatever happens from here, it doesn't seem a stretch to predict that we will collectively overcompensate.
Re: US Politics Megathread
Kind of a huge question. Suffice to say I think New Deal policies contributed to, though were certainly not the only cause of, the period of economic decline that eventually led to the rise of neoliberalism.
Re: US Politics Megathread
I mean, that very much depends on how the government spends that money doesn't it? The blanket statement that higher taxes necessarily lead to a net loss in economic activity is not worth debating to me.Dolan wrote: β26 May 2022, 19:58Higher taxes would destroy economic activity even more, ...Goodspeed wrote: β25 May 2022, 19:43Taken to the extreme, neither way really works. [...] we are currently at one of the extremes; Moving left with our economic policy is almost certainly going to improve matters.
Given where we are, trading growth for equality is a good thing, to an extent. I think governments are unlikely to start nationalizing things left and right, but would expect tax systems to get more progressive (i.e. higher taxes for the rich), stronger unions, bigger social safety nets, cheaper health care, cheaper education etc. These are all things that will lead to a stronger middle class, which is what almost every country that embraced neoliberal politics needs right now.
Yeah the current situation is very different from the 1930s in many ways, and I'm not saying we should just copy-paste New Deal policies. Just that it's likely that left-wing policies are likely to gain in popularity as more and more voters wake up to the fact that the status quo isn't benefiting them.The new deal was a Keynesian program that was meant to combat deflation. Basically the government jumped in, as the economic depression wreaked havoc and economic activity was shrinking fast, and created artificial economic activity (large public projects) to counter plummeting supply and avoid a deflationary spiral. We're in a different situation now, as inflation is rising everywhere as a result of the war in Ukraine making fossil fuels prices soar.Politics though is ultimately more of a discussion of what's popular than what works. Even if moving away from neoliberal policies and more towards new deal policies wouldn't improve matters, it's likely to be very popular at least in the coming decade(s) because the relevant generations have seen first hand that the other way doesn't work. New deal policies are obvious and intuitive answers to the problem of rising inequality, so they will naturally be popular. Hence my prediction that the Overton window is going to start/continue moving left.
Publicly funded projects don't necessarily reduce inequality, usually they fund low-paying unqualified jobs, like for those people who lay asphalt on roads. It's not like the government will pay them 5000 bucks to do that, or else they'd see janitors leave their jobs and scrambling to get those high-paying unqualified jobs.
The new deal era was very different from now. For example, the USA was on the gold standard, which severely limited their monetary policy. They couldn't just print more money to fight deflation, they had to suspend the gold standard and allow the dollar to float freely. Very different set of circumstances. Then the war started and the US went into war economy mode. Then after the war, there was the usual post-war optimism which always leads to economic boom, as motivation to rebuild, replace, consume increases.Of course, it's easy to move too far in the other direction. This seems to have happened during the new deal era as well as during the current neoliberal era. Whatever happens from here, it doesn't seem a stretch to predict that we will collectively overcompensate.
Re: US Politics Megathread
sorry, to clarify, when was the period of economic decline resultant of the new deal? i'm imagining you might be referring to the 60s, 70s, and this economic decline would've in part been due to the stronger unions & higher union membership in this time period & to do with social security beginning to eclipse as workers of the prior generation began cashing out?
Re: US Politics Megathread
I don't want to oversimplify it nor do I want to spend an hour typing a post about something that I don't consider an important question in a discussion about where we're heading today.
To be fair there are some factors that make overcompensation less likely today, as well. Importantly there's no more threat of communism which at the time scared the GOP, incentivizing them to compromise with the left to a greater extent.
Permanent deadlock is also possible, given how easy it is now for people to live in separate perceived realities.
To be fair there are some factors that make overcompensation less likely today, as well. Importantly there's no more threat of communism which at the time scared the GOP, incentivizing them to compromise with the left to a greater extent.
Permanent deadlock is also possible, given how easy it is now for people to live in separate perceived realities.
- fightinfrenchman
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Re: US Politics Megathread
My student debt is gonna get canceled and it's based af
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