Poker

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

Sometimes but probably not enough, yeah
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

So a bad bluff against competent players but maybe in 2NL it's +EV to be making plays like this, hoping they're not good enough to make the call
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Re: Poker

Post by don_artie »

Goodspeed wrote:Sometimes but probably not enough, yeah
yeah basically my mindset is that if an opponent is repping a trap (if you check flop with overpair you are trapping), i will not give them credit for it. so in his case i would also call with the 66. I think you should just bet flop
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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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Re: Poker

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

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First SF! No hating on the hand. I called the flop, turn, and river for my opponent's remaining 40BB as he had the ace of clubs.
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Great Britain chris1089
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Re: Poker

Post by chris1089 »

Bump.
I decided I like tournaments more than cash games so I've been playing those. I've been profitable at the $0.25 sitngos, so trying the $0.50 ones now. Cashed for 4th place on my 7th buy in, also threw away a few big stacks so it's teaching me to be a bit more careful with my stack. Got away with throwing away a big stack more at the lower stake as I was so winning I could build it back up half the time.
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Re: Poker

Post by chris1089 »

Fixed my preflop range being too wide in 6-max 0.01/0.02, and now massively profitable there. Discovered how convenient it is to play cash games, so not sure I'll continue with tournaments as much, though I do find them more enjoyable. It takes a while to play even a sit and go or a turbo, let alone a full-blown MTT.

Any way to know my BB/100 hands etc. without buying software? Playing on GG.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

GG has some analysis website you can use to view BB/100 but it doesn't include rake so you have to manually calculate a bit. I think there's a link to it in the bottom left in settings or something
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

@Garja I saw you say somewhere you're grinding NL100. Have you been playing for a long time or did you move up the stakes somewhat recently? If recent, do you remember how much your BB/100 decreased each time you moved up?
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Italy Garja
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Re: Poker

Post by Garja »

I play on pokerstars.it at the moment. The field should be the similar to other .com major rooms except it's smaller. Prior to that I've been on ipoker and another national poker room. I started taking it serisouly in 2019.
I've been playing nl100 since november. From my experience the winrate drops drastically from nl50 and on on. That's where you start to econounter players who to take it seriously and also recreationals are more aggro/less risk adverse (they often play higher stakes for example). bb/100 at the microstakes (nl2-nl25) can be anything from 3 to 20 bb/100 depending on how good you are and how long you intend to stay on that stake. I personally moved from nl25 once I was beating it easily (last week I scored 25 bb/100 iirc), then from nl50 to nl100 once I reached a relatively steady 5-6 bb/100 (admittedly over a short time frame, prior to that ran like 6 months 40 buy-in under EV with many swings so idk exactly what my EV bb/100 was in the first place).
nl100 so far has been ups and downs. It went pretty well from november to march and now I'm on a 150k hands heavy downswing. Overall I'm probably only slightly above break even because of that (rakeback aside). What I found is that the field changes drastically during the year. It gets tougher in the summer and also during big tourney series there are more recreationals at the cash game tables but the variance is higher because they play like degenerates.

Idk about ggpoker. All I know is that the rake is super high and it's hard to be actually profitable without rakeback.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah unfortunately I don't have the option to play on stars right now due to some new law going into effect here. They should be coming back to the Netherlands this year or early next and I'll go back there then.

Just started playing again after a long break. Looking to double my bankroll playing NL5 then move up. Will probably take a while.

Might want to start playing some tournaments soon
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

So I bought GTO+ to study specific hands and spots that I feel unsure about and one of them is whether to call down 4-bet pots with pocket pairs on dry boards with at most a queen. They could be bluffing with AK or weak suited aces so I feel like I should be calling a lot of the time, anyway I put the following scenario in the solver and the results are confusing to me, maybe @don_artie or @Garja understand?

4-bet pot with 100BB effective stacks (so both have 80 left), BTN was the 4-better and BB called. I estimated the ranges to be:

BTN:
Image

BB:
Image

You might say BB should 5-bet with 99 through QQ but I like to just see a flop, I guess it's not optimal but allows me to fold those hands when an ace or king lands so it can't be that bad I imagine.

So I put in a dry flop 852r BB checks, BTN bets their entire range, makes sense, and here it gets confusing to me already because it wants BB to...

Image

... fold the TT some of the time, and always call with JJ. It also somehow likes calling with 99 more than with TT and I just don't get what hands the TT is blocking that we don't want our opponent to have, or what kind of draws it would be blocking that JJ and 99 wouldn't be.

Turn is a gray Q BTN jams and now it wants to fold the nines and the tens but not the jacks. I don't understand this. Jacks should be identical to tens in value against their range except that they could also have jacks but you're blocking that pretty hard.

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Suriname kaister
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Re: Poker

Post by kaister »

"There's no right way to play jiggities"

above that easy call, below that usually wanna fold, if JJ then flip a coin and see what happens
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

I guess that one possible combination of JJ that he could have puts you over the edge of not losing to >50% of his range? Funny coincidence, that, considering the total amount of combos (39?)

I still don't understand that it prefers 99 over TT on the flop though
Edit: Actually that's because of the backdoor straight. Ok I guess this all makes sense
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Italy Garja
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Re: Poker

Post by Garja »

The first question should be: who are you actually playing against? GTO reasoning makes sense if you are playing against a somewhat decent opponent who is capable of bluffing enough. You'd be surprised how far from gto are even some regs at nl100 and 200.
With that said, just check what the solver does and maybe nodelock if you think the opponent is deviating. But like, 4bet pots have very narrow ranges so even half a combo changes the outcome. There is a reason they're not really studied even at the stake I play atm, it's all speculations on how the opponent is going to play it and it's not even a spot that influence your winrate that much.
I suggest to always shove JJ, QQ and AK preflop against a reg. Just flat AA. The EV gain of the fold equity is just too high compared to the times you get stacked by kings or aces or the times you save some money on a bad board. Also it is a much easier decision and you don't get outplayed postflop (oop with rsnge deficit is not exactly a cool spot to be in).
Postflop, as a general rule, you basically stack off with anything that hits the board simply because you have almost always the odds to call with such SPR. That is against a capable opponent. Against bad regs and worse just overfold massively but then you might just question your preflop ranges in the first place.
99 there calls because it can make a straight by the river so it is probably 0.0something more EV than TT (and JJ).
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Italy Garja
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Re: Poker

Post by Garja »

Also I suggest to change the color scheme of GTO+ and making it silar to PIO and other solvers (fold blue, call/check green, bet/raise red). I can pass you my color code if you want.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

Good point I was confused about the colors at first too
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

Garja wrote: ↑
12 Aug 2022, 12:28
The first question should be: who are you actually playing against? GTO reasoning makes sense if you are playing against a somewhat decent opponent who is capable of bluffing enough. You'd be surprised how far from gto are even some regs at nl100 and 200.
I recently started playing NL5 on GGpoker which has a shitty HUD and Pokertracker doesn't work with it (it feels like the platform is deliberately bad for people who take the game seriously) so I kinda don't know who I'm playing against. My opponents are all over the place though that's for sure. They seem to be 3-betting light a lot so I'm trying to adapt to that, other than that idk yet.

I also don't think I have the skills to notice when opponents are being unreasonable. Sure I can spot donkers and limpers and can save a note on someone when they do something ridiculous but few hands reach showdown and there's no big dataset to analyze so how do I even figure out how to exploit the field?

One reason I'm trying to study GTO a bit is that if I know the correct plays, maybe I'll notice it more when my opponent's don't.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

Any of you online poker players keeping track of US law concerning online gambling? If it ever gets legalized there online poker rooms would become insanely profitable overnight
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Italy Garja
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Re: Poker

Post by Garja »

Fair enough. Ye ggpoker has a policy of keeping the game somewhat more casual which means better field but less tools for regs to get an edge.
At microstakes I'd assume the average reg is nitty anyway compared to gto, so you can still overfold quite a lot and play straightfoward. For example in your hand if you get jammed OTT you can basically fold range except the nuts and you're probably not even getting exploited. I just don't see the average player to bluff (enough) for the whole stack with AK or some other random hand. People might bluff flop and turn and then give up river. Then again .com field might be different (it actually is from what I've heard). Also it is nl5 so probably none is money scared and might bluff more light.
Anyway, if you want to avoid this kind of situation just x/shove on low flops with all your overpairs and flush draws. You're incredibly face up to anyone who pays attention to the showdowns but it doesn't even matter that much because if he's blindly betting range then your move should be close to optimal, assuming he has proper range with enough starting bluff combos and your preflop range is built accordingly. Often you just get stacked by a better overpair but often enough you cooler JJ/TT and also deny equity to all the Ax and broadway combos.
But I just don't expect you to 3bet enough in the first place and then BTN to 4bet anywhere near optimal (6%ish) in response to that. So in practice ranges are quite snug just like in your example and you can basically just snap fold pre 99 and AQo, mix call/fold AJs, AQs and TT (which play for stack only on best case flops), mix call/shove AA and reshove JJ+ and AK. Against suspected bad regs just play for stacks with QQ+ and AK preflop while folding everything else.

Anyway try this color scheme
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

It's very true that players don't bluff (enough), I'm already folding way more than I did at the start because I kept getting rekt at showdown when I made big calls on the river, even though the solver then tells me it was correct. One of the only times that worked for me was against a clearly winning player (he had a stack of 1500 BB) who triple barrelled me with AK.

I'm a bit afraid of learning bad habits this way though
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

Reminds me of the time I went from 2NL to 5NL on pokerstars and my showdown winnings took a massive dump while my non-showdown winnings went up. (the red line is non-showdown, blue line is showdown, green line total all-in adjusted winnings iirc)
Goodspeed wrote: ↑
23 Aug 2021, 22:18
The difference between 2NL and 5NL:

2NL:
Image

5NL:
Image

In the 2NL graph you can clearly see the moment I learned some important stuff, but more interesting is the difference between money won with/without showdown in both graphs. In the 2NL one it's as you would expect after the first 10k "learning hands", which is that the non-showdown winnings even out to about zero and the showdown winnings are positive, but in 5NL players have obviously gotten significantly tighter which means I need to take less hands to showdown. Still trying to figure out what the spots are where I'm calling too much. I think it's mostly on the river, sometimes turn. Also my c-bet turn is close to 100% which is too high I think. @don_artie when don't you c-bet a turn?
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Italy Garja
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Re: Poker

Post by Garja »

Goodspeed wrote: ↑
12 Aug 2022, 16:09
I'm a bit afraid of learning bad habits this way though
Doesn't GGpoker have a hand history file to download to put in a tracker when offgame? You can check your frequencies that way and correct when needed. That is in anticipation of future level ups.
In general tho, it's hard to get exploited if you overfold. They don't see the showdowns and they can only check your frequencies offline by specifically studying them (none is gonna do that).
With an ingame HUD it is slightly different because some frequencies might be suspicious and encourage exploits from decent players.
But again, I wouldn't worry at the microstakes.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah but the export thing is limited at 10k hands which is kind of annoying. It works for me though I guess, since I'm single-tabling for now. Haven't bothered with it so far

Btw, what are your bet size settings in GTO+? I have it at 33%, 75%, and jam on the river only because if I add more it starts to take too long. Or is it okay to have a dEV of like 5?
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Italy Garja
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Re: Poker

Post by Garja »

You mean sizes for 3bet pots, or in general?
Talking about real play (vs regs) I have mostly one size flop, 2 sizes turn and 2 sizes river. It's like small bet flop, big bet and overbet turn and river. It's a function of your strat anyway. If you simplify the gto strat into pure strat those are usually the sizes you want/need.
What do you mean with dEV 5?
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Poker

Post by Goodspeed »

I mean sizes in general, I have only one profile rn. You use different ones with 3bet pots?

While the solver is running it gives a dEV number (and percentage) which I assume means the possible delta in EV as a sort of confidence factor. It lowers the longer you leave it running (confidence increases).
Or am I doing it wrong?

Interesting about the sizes. I should work on that I guess. I often bet 1/3 or 1/2 pot on the turn and river. You saying you never do?

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