ESOC Crypto Corner

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No Flag lejend
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by lejend »

So each website/exchange has different coin prices? That might not be a problem, since whether you buy at 9600 or 9900, if it reaches 20000 then you've still made quite a nice profit. But if you can't withdraw it in cash, then I don't see the point. I've heard rumors of "crypto millionaires", people with millions of dollars worth of coins but they can't cash out. If true, then that sucks. Every website seems to have very low withdrawal limits, and I've read that the ones with high withdrawal limits (10k per day I think), don't actually allow you to do it. Is that true? Has anyone here withdrawn that much in less than 2 weeks?
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

This might be interesting: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1671839.0

Again, you don't need to buy actual Bitcoins to invest in them.
Pay more attention to detail.
No Flag kami_ryu
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by kami_ryu »

-- deleted post --

Reason: on request (off-topic bulk delete)
No Flag deleted_user
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by deleted_user »

I value my sanity so I do not participate in the what-ifs of crypto currency and public trade.
Sweden Zutazuta
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Zutazuta »

deleted_user wrote:I value my sanity so I do not participate in public trade.


FYI, this is a horrible mentality. You’ll work until they put you in the grave...
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

There's no Victor here, Zuta. Go home. You're drunk.
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No Flag deleted_user
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by deleted_user »

Zutazuta wrote:
deleted_user wrote:I value my sanity so I do not participate in public trade.


FYI, this is a horrible mentality. You’ll work until they put you in the grave...

So be it! I'm going to live in a van anyways.
No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

lejend wrote:So each website/exchange has different coin prices? That might not be a problem, since whether you buy at 9600 or 9900, if it reaches 20000 then you've still made quite a nice profit. But if you can't withdraw it in cash, then I don't see the point. I've heard rumors of "crypto millionaires", people with millions of dollars worth of coins but they can't cash out. If true, then that sucks. Every website seems to have very low withdrawal limits, and I've read that the ones with high withdrawal limits (10k per day I think), don't actually allow you to do it. Is that true? Has anyone here withdrawn that much in less than 2 weeks?


Yeah thats the problem, and it wont change, or it shouldnt if they want it to work. The coins, or some atleast have to become accepted payment. Then withdrawing is irrelevant. But this will take a while before it happens. And if it doesnt happen, that might kill it in the end
No Flag lejend
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by lejend »

Gendarme wrote:This might be interesting: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1671839.0


Yeah that's what the official withdrawal limits are, but has anyone here actually done it? I always hear about how they refuse or delay it forever. I say "here" because elsewhere there are always paid advocates shilling for these sites. It's probably not a problem for most people, but if you invest all your life savings and need to withdraw it in an emergency, you could be out of luck.

Again, you don't need to buy actual Bitcoins to invest in them.


Yeah I'll have to look that up, but maybe those places have sell/withdrawal limits too? :hmm:

umeu wrote:Yeah thats the problem, and it wont change, or it shouldnt if they want it to work. The coins, or some atleast have to become accepted payment. Then withdrawing is irrelevant. But this will take a while before it happens. And if it doesnt happen, that might kill it in the end


It seems only a small number of people view these coins as currency. Most view them as a way to get rich quick, buying and selling them for dollars. I mean that's all right. The more people rely on the free market the sooner government bureaucrats can be sent packing.
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

lejend wrote:
Again, you don't need to buy actual Bitcoins to invest in them.


Yeah I'll have to look that up, but maybe those places have sell/withdrawal limits too? :hmm:
They are traded on the normal stock-exchanges. You store them in your bank account and trade online as with any other security.

lejend wrote:The more people rely on the free market the sooner government bureaucrats can be sent packing.
There's no guarantee that Bitcoin won't be under centralized control. The anonymous nature of Bitcoin allows an entity to own an arbitrarily large amount of Bitcoins without anyone knowing that they are owned by one entity, or whether they are in circulation or not. The entity could trade with his himself and create the illusion of circulation. Furthermore, the power is in the hands of the miners. I don't see any guarantee that mining will remain decentralized. If anything, I see the opposite.

Here's a quote from anon:
Today, you must invest at least $100,000 dollars in a mining rig to produce and efficient profit. However as time progresses, we see giant mining operations coming into existence worth millions of dollars. Eventually, these will be the only operations with ability to mine bitcoin efficiently, forcing everyone else out of profitable mining. Once these operations become aware of each other, they will bond together, fix the market in their favor, and bitcoin looses its underlying purpose by no longer being a decentralized form of currency. Centralization will occur, rendering bitcoin no different than our current monetary system. There is no hope that this will not occur, it is a guarantee.
Pay more attention to detail.
No Flag lejend
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by lejend »

I meant that if people get rich due to this, or at least learn that you can make a lot of money from trading stocks and such, they will start to be less supportive of government welfare schemes. :smile:

Gendarme wrote:They are traded on the normal stock-exchanges. You store them in your bank account and trade online as with any other security


I reread your explanation of it in your back and forth with Snuden on page 1. It might work, yeah. But I think keeping and trading the coins personally is safer, in case you get in trouble with the government.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

Gendarme wrote:$9,000 hypeuuuuu
$10,000 hypeuuuuu
Pay more attention to detail.
No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

lejend wrote:
Gendarme wrote:This might be interesting: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1671839.0


Yeah that's what the official withdrawal limits are, but has anyone here actually done it? I always hear about how they refuse or delay it forever. I say "here" because elsewhere there are always paid advocates shilling for these sites. It's probably not a problem for most people, but if you invest all your life savings and need to withdraw it in an emergency, you could be out of luck.

Again, you don't need to buy actual Bitcoins to invest in them.


Yeah I'll have to look that up, but maybe those places have sell/withdrawal limits too? :hmm:

umeu wrote:Yeah thats the problem, and it wont change, or it shouldnt if they want it to work. The coins, or some atleast have to become accepted payment. Then withdrawing is irrelevant. But this will take a while before it happens. And if it doesnt happen, that might kill it in the end


It seems only a small number of people view these coins as currency. Most view them as a way to get rich quick, buying and selling them for dollars. I mean that's all right. The more people rely on the free market the sooner government bureaucrats can be sent packing.


I know they do, and that's actually quite contrary to the btc ideal when it was created, as far as i can judge. And the high value is a bit ofa problem for btc as a currency. But yea most alt coins are designed as stock. And that part is most likely some sort of bubble depending on when the trading will slow down. But the trading is only going to pick up for now. Last year, this year and next 1-2 years will be the california gold rush high days

And sure a lot of money can be made on stock exchanges. But that money has to be "lost" be someone else basically. And there are still plenty of people who lack the means even to invest 10€ into anything, and so this is never going to help them in any case. And specially simce in this case nothing of actual value in the traditional sense is created, its even debatable if everyome is going to be better off in the end.
No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

Gendarme wrote:
lejend wrote:
Again, you don't need to buy actual Bitcoins to invest in them.


Yeah I'll have to look that up, but maybe those places have sell/withdrawal limits too? :hmm:
They are traded on the normal stock-exchanges. You store them in your bank account and trade online as with any other security.

lejend wrote:The more people rely on the free market the sooner government bureaucrats can be sent packing.
There's no guarantee that Bitcoin won't be under centralized control. The anonymous nature of Bitcoin allows an entity to own an arbitrarily large amount of Bitcoins without anyone knowing that they are owned by one entity, or whether they are in circulation or not. The entity could trade with his himself and create the illusion of circulation. Furthermore, the power is in the hands of the miners. I don't see any guarantee that mining will remain decentralized. If anything, I see the opposite.

Here's a quote from anon:
Today, you must invest at least $100,000 dollars in a mining rig to produce and efficient profit. However as time progresses, we see giant mining operations coming into existence worth millions of dollars. Eventually, these will be the only operations with ability to mine bitcoin efficiently, forcing everyone else out of profitable mining. Once these operations become aware of each other, they will bond together, fix the market in their favor, and bitcoin looses its underlying purpose by no longer being a decentralized form of currency. Centralization will occur, rendering bitcoin no different than our current monetary system. There is no hope that this will not occur, it is a guarantee.


I read an article about the energy consumption of mining. Its going to interesting to see how thats gonna affect the long term validity of this approach
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

It is important to distinguish "a small number of people view these coins as currency" from "a small number of Bitcoins are held as currency". The minority of people that do believe in Bitcoin are heavily invested while the others aren't, I think. Furthermore, being a currency does not mean competing with current currency in every aspect. The purpose of Bitcoin has—to my knowledge—never been to fuel small every-day transactions. Bitcoin is incredibly useful already for international trade (try transferring money to my Swedish bank account and you'll see how slow and difficult it is), anonymous trade (both legal and illegal), and plain old banking for a large number of people who don't have bank accounts in poor countries. The technology itself is also not restricted to be used merely as money.

umeu wrote:I read an article about the energy consumption of mining. Its going to interesting to see how thats gonna affect the long term validity of this approach
I think the system is designed so that a block will be found on average every 10 minutes. If the blocks are found too quickly, the mining will become harder (and thus require more energy). The update of the mining-difficulty is right now once every few months, I think. I think if it begins to require too much energy to be profitable there will be less mining and mining will thus become less expensive. In other words, mining will always be profitable by design.
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No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

That totally ignores energy prices, which are established seperate from the crypto market. If energy prices surge, this might make mining a lot more expensive suddenly, without a corresponding surge in demand to keep up with price increase.

Its been calculated in that article that one btc transaction uses up as much energy as an average dutch household in a month.regardless of profit for the miners, thats quite crazy.

That said, i don't doubt that technological innovation will solve it
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

I don't see how it ignores energy prices. If there is less mining, mining will become easier to keep a constant rate of transations. This is regardless of the cause of the decrease in mining. The fact that it can happen suddenly and the Bitcoin network taking months to adjust (if I am correct about it taking months) could be a big problem, yes.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

@deleted_user
Gendarme wrote:I don't see how it ignores energy prices. If there is less mining, mining will become easier to keep a constant rate of transations. This is regardless of the cause of the decrease in mining. The fact that it can happen suddenly and the Bitcoin network taking months to adjust (if I am correct about it taking months) could be a big problem, yes.
Apparently the Bitcoin difficulty is adjusted every 2016 blocks, so if the energy price doesn't surge to disruptive levels within a time-span of 2016 blocks it doesn't even matter at all. However, even if it does surge too quickly it is not a problem, I think, as the difficulty level is not the only thing that affects the profitability of mining. Mining is simply a race to find the next block: the person who finds it gets 12.5 Bitcoins (at the moment) and all others who worked on finding this block have wasted their effort. Mining is therefore highly competitive and is purposefully designed to waste energy. The Bitcoin difficulty in combination with the competition is what decides the amount of energy needed to find a block. If energy prices soar, competition (and thus the amount of energy required) will decrease (proportionally, I think), rendering the energy price irrelevant.

Bitcoin mining is hence designed to waste as much energy as possible, but always remain profitable. The energy waste may seem... wasteful, but it is a core building block of Bitcoin. If mining is expensive, attacking the network is also expensive. This incentivises miners to follow the rules; a failed attack costs a lot of money.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

Gendarme wrote:
Gendarme wrote:$9,000 hypeuuuuu
$10,000 hypeuuuuu
$11,000 hypeuuuuu
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Goodspeed »

So how much can ESOC be expecting in donations from you @Gendarme?
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Gendarme »

Completely depends on how many beersh @n0el is willing to chug.
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by Jam »

You should donate 1 bitcoin. I mean it's only 1!
No Flag lejend
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by lejend »

umeu wrote:And sure a lot of money can be made on stock exchanges. But that money has to be "lost" be someone else basically. And there are still plenty of people who lack the means even to invest 10€ into anything, and so this is never going to help them in any case. And specially simce in this case nothing of actual value in the traditional sense is created, its even debatable if everyome is going to be better off in the end.


You're starting to sound like LawChick. :roll:
No Flag deleted_user0
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by deleted_user0 »

lejend wrote:
umeu wrote:And sure a lot of money can be made on stock exchanges. But that money has to be "lost" be someone else basically. And there are still plenty of people who lack the means even to invest 10€ into anything, and so this is never going to help them in any case. And specially simce in this case nothing of actual value in the traditional sense is created, its even debatable if everyome is going to be better off in the end.


You're starting to sound like LawChick. :roll:


And you sound like a hysterical ayn rand. You talk a lot of talk. But i don't see any walk. You pretend its se money tree, thats an easy boom to everone. Fact is, not everyone can get rich off trading. And many people can't afford to trade. Its funny you never consider them whenever you post your delusional theories. Perhaps because you dont think theyre people or something. Who knows, you believe you're jesus after all
No Flag lejend
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Re: ESOC Crypto Corner

Post by lejend »

So because not 100% of the population can gain from a caertain opportunity, nobody should? What kind of logic is that? Just give 20% of the profits to a church or something. :roll:

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