HealthCare

This is for discussions about news, politics, sports, other games, culture, philosophy etc.
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

HealthCare

Post by lejend »

I'm starting a thread for this because the old one about institutions has gotten messy. A clean start might be better. The only rule is that all arguments must be made in good faith. If you call people stupid, trolls or evil don't be surprised if your post is ignored. I encourage the moderators to warn posters for spam and insults.

I'd like to start the thread with an ecxellent quote, which I think shows the core of the disagreement between socialists and free-market proponents.

“Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.”
― Frédéric Bastiat, The Law

I think that while advocates of government-run health insurance are well-intentioned, their policies are caused by ignorance of economics, and a belief that universal health insurance is a moral imperative, which often is exacerbated by their inability to distinguish government from society.

I disagree on all points.

1. I think the past century has proven, without any doubt, that a free market is superior to central planning. With regard to efficiency, innovation and wealth generation, the free market system has been shown to consistently blow central planning out of the water. Far more wealth has been created under the free market, than during the rest of history combined. Billions have been lifted out of poverty. Goods or services that were previously considered impossible or accessible only to the very wealthy, are now plentiful and affordable to the poorest segments of society.

All but the most ideological fringe of the Left have accepted that market economy beats socialism. Nobody today seriously argues for a government monopoly or public option for smartphones, video games, food, or any other good. They understand that market economies are the best at inventing new goods, and delivering them to the largest number of people for the lowest possible cost.

However, when it comes to the issue of health care, many on the Left retain their discredited belief in the superiority of central planning. They are unable to explain why the very same economics laws that make the free market superior, when it comes to smartphones somehow magically disappear when a good deemed "essential" is involved, in this case health insurance.

2.

In my opinion it's due to the emotionally charged nature of the issue, which causes people to form their beliefs based on fear and empathy, rather than data and reason. That's why nightmare isolated incidents are commonly provided as a reason to overhaul the entire system. It's raelly not dissimilar from people who oppose all immigrants simply because some are criminals.

Ideology when divorced from reason leads to fanaticism. When you think that the moral highground belongs only to you, it's easy to demonize opponents and dismiss them as cartoon villains. In extreme cases it can lead to oppression or violence, but in less extreme cases it sitll can lead to a polarized, fragmented society composed of isolated groups that distrust and even despise each other. After all, why would you associate with evil people? So I think that the first step to a productive discussion, is accepting that you don't have the moral highground on this issue.

That's just an introduction. I will discuss health care more specifically within a few days.

:flowers:
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: HealthCare

Post by gibson »

I mean you just have to look at every single 1st world country besides the United States which have better healthcare systems to see that a single payer system is better. Its not even debatable tbh.
User avatar
Brazil lemmings121
Jaeger
Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar 15, 2015
ESO: lemmings121

Re: HealthCare

Post by lemmings121 »

gibson wrote:I mean you just have to look at every single 1st world country besides the United States which have better healthcare systems to see that a single payer system is better. Its not even debatable tbh.


tbf, even in "shithole omg brazil hue", you can actually call a free ambulance when you break a leg. You wont be forced into bankrupcy or fixing your leg in the kitchen at home lol
Image
User avatar
Greece BrookG
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2009
Joined: Feb 21, 2016
ESO: BrookG
Location: Thessaloniki

Re: HealthCare

Post by BrookG »

@Gendarme said I must intervene. Proceed to see my signature for further info
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

"mr.brookg go buy jeans and goto the club with somppuli" - Princeofkabul, July 2018
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by lejend »

gibson wrote:I mean you just have to look at every single 1st world country besides the United States which have better healthcare systems to see that a single payer system is better. Its not even debatable tbh.


I assume you just mean universal health insurance, which can take various forms, not only single-payer.

You'll have to name specific countries, as well as the exact metrics on which their health care systems outperform America's.

You might also want to differentiate between private-insured, government-insured and uninsured individuals, because each population is very different, demographically. For instance, if Europeans were better off health-wise than government-insured Americans, that is not a good argument for government health insurance in America, is it?
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: HealthCare

  • Quote

Post by WickedCossack »

lejend wrote:They are unable to explain why the very same economics laws that make the free market superior, when it comes to smartphones somehow magically disappear.


I love free markets, for the vast majority of industries they work great. Yet you have not made the argument why you think free markets work specifically for healthcare. You are taking the benefits of free markets in other industries and parading them around at the door of healthcare.

Here are a couple of arguments why free markets and healthcare don't mix:

- Barriers to entry are too high too ensure competition.
It's almost impossible for a new entrant to start a pharmaceutical company. The capital, expertise, legal requirements make it one of the sparsest industries out there. This is why these companies can dump a 100,000% markup (yes you read that right) on basic medicines because the competition isn't sufficient. Here's a link to some markups to show what companies can get away with including one drug at 569,958%! Free markets at work baby!

- Poor people priced out.
Fairly self explanatory. Free markets always price out the poorest in any society. Now with most products this isn't a huge deal, people can live without the latest technology, transport, holidays, entertainment and so on. While they arguably improve your life they are not essential. Healthcare however is essential. In 2009 it was estimated that 45,000 people in America died due to being priced out. If you are in favour of a system that supports free markets for healthcare you are complicit in the deaths of the society's poorest.

That's just a couple of the more prominent reasons. Here's an article listing some more if you're interested.

To your point we can explain why the economics are different. Not only can it be explained but we can see it in practice. To present your argument you not only have to explain i) why free markets work specifically for healthcare?, but if that is indeed that case ii) why does social healthcare cost significantly in every other high-income country cost less than the system in America?

lejend wrote:In my opinion it's due to the emotionally charged nature of the issue, which causes people to form their beliefs based on fear and empathy, rather than data and reason.


I agree with this but in the sense that you're on the side of feelings and not on the side of reason. The data is clear, i) America has worse health outcomes than every other high-income country and ii) America and it's citizens pay significantly more for said healthcare. This is indisputable. Here's a good review a good review comparing America to other high-income countries but there are many out there. When I say it's indisputable I mean it, I can't find a single study, article or even opinion piece to suggest otherwise. The facts are absolutely not on your side.

Speaking of facts so far I have not seen you present any (or data) in your arguments except for your satisfaction rates that actually turned out to support my position more than yours. I'd be much more amenable to your position if you could include some rather than just explaining your feelings.
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by lejend »

WickedCossack wrote:.


The starting post is just to provide a background for where my views come from. Namely that while I support accessible health care for everyone, I simply disagree with socialists that central planning is the best way of achieving it. So it isn't that I'm consciously advocating for letting millions die. Those types of remarks completely destroy any chance of reasonable debate, so I wanted to get it out of the way.

I will definitely address your specific arguments on health care soon.
User avatar
United States of America TheInvincibleJannisary
Dragoon
Posts: 257
Joined: Dec 31, 2017

Re: HealthCare

Post by TheInvincibleJannisary »

phpBB [video]
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: HealthCare

Post by momuuu »

I'm not in favor of public healthcare. I think half assing some capitalist system into a private sector gives poor results. Healthcare should be available to all, being sick is not a choice.
User avatar
No Flag fightinfrenchman
Ninja
Donator 04
Posts: 23505
Joined: Oct 17, 2015
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: HealthCare

  • Quote

Post by fightinfrenchman »

@lejend I don't know why I'm doing this, knowing that you never debate in good faith. But I feel like I have to address this.

"However, when it comes to the issue of health care, many on the Left retain their discredited belief in the superiority of central planning. They are unable to explain why the very same economics laws that make the free market superior, when it comes to smartphones somehow magically disappear when a good deemed "essential" is involved, in this case health insurance."

I'm not a socialist, I strongly believe in the power of free markets. But health care is an example of a market failure because, if you need something to live (or live without pain/misery) you are willing to pay any amount of money for it. The essentially infinite demand means the market isn't going to deliver fair prices, and people will instead go without and die senselessly. The market does a lot of good but the government needs to step in when it fails.
Dromedary Scone Mix is not Alone Mix
Image
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: HealthCare

Post by gamevideo113 »

[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by WickedCossack »

gamevideo113 wrote:https://www.facebook.com/ethan.marquette.9/posts/2008558582506213


This is why I always get drawn into discussions on healthcare so easily when I see how badly people with the same condition I have treated so poorly in a 1st world country. Poor healthcare is really the one reason I'm so glad I was never born in America.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: HealthCare

  • Quote

Post by gibson »

I dont disagree that Healthcare in the United States is horrible, but that's an extreme example. If you take an extreme example from any country their Healthcare system is gonna look poor.
Middle class people in the the US are almost always fine.
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: HealthCare

  • Quote

Post by WickedCossack »

gibson wrote:I dont disagree that Healthcare in the United States is horrible, but that's an extreme example. If you take an extreme example from any country their Healthcare system is gonna look poor.
Middle class people in the the US are almost always fine.


There's 1.25 million t1 diabetics in America. They all have to pay $6,000-$12,000 extra on top of paying for medical insurance and on top of paying 3x more in government taxes than say the UK. Some can afford it, some can't, either way they all have to go through the same experience/costs. Call 1.25 million people an extreme example if you want.
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: HealthCare

Post by gamevideo113 »

gibson wrote:I dont disagree that Healthcare in the United States is horrible, but that's an extreme example. If you take an extreme example from any country their Healthcare system is gonna look poor.
Middle class people in the the US are almost always fine.

Unfortunately that’s not an extreme example. Some medicines cost a lot more than insulin.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
No Flag lejend
Jaeger
Posts: 2461
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by lejend »

The guy in that Facebook post is probably complaining about ObamaCare, a government program that was ostensibly meant to help people, but only ended up making things worse. The insurance that people get through ObamaCare is utter crap. You do have coverage on paper, but when you actually need health care it is nowhere to be found; for instance, you have to pay thousands of dollars first before the insurer starts paying for your treatment.

Obama gets to brag about extending "coverage" to uninsured people, but few people see any benefits.

That's what "universal coverage" means. That's why people should be very wary of claims like, "England has 100% universal coverage." Health insurance doesn't mean health care. In Europe people have "coverage" but get denied treatment or are put on endless waiting lists. That's because resources are finite. No government law will ever change that reality.

Quoting:

I’ll have to keep doing so until I reach my max out of pocket which is $7,000. Keep in mind I DO have health insurance, blue cross and blue shield. Pretty big name. “Healthcare for all” you say, “it will be great and affordable” you say. I literally work a second job to just stay alive!! People that are unemployed and have no health insurance pay much less than I do.


So a government program had "unintended consequences" and disrupted and damaged the system. The solution then is less government, not more. The current system is not as bad as leftists claim but it is still fairly bad. The reason is too much government, not too little.
User avatar
Norway spanky4ever
Gendarme
iwillspankyou
Posts: 8389
Joined: Apr 13, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by spanky4ever »

@lejend say:
The insurance that people get through ObamaCare is utter crap. You do have coverage on paper, but when you actually need health care it is nowhere to be found; for instance, you have to pay thousands of dollars first before the insurer starts paying for your treatment.Obama gets to brag about extending "coverage" to uninsured people, but few people see any benefits.

Yeah. I agree with you on this one. cos Obama care is not really a public healtcare. It was originally a Republican bill!! The prices skyrocketing, are the result.

That's what "universal coverage" means. That's why people should be very wary of claims like, "England has 100% universal coverage." Health insurance doesn't mean health care. In Europe people have "coverage" but get denied treatment or are put on endless waiting lists. That's because resources are finite. No government law will ever change that reality.

Your claim on endless waitinglist, are very wrong though. For smaller, not importaint for your survival, yeah I guess those could have a waitinglist.

This video should open your eyes though, if you care to take a look :P
phpBB [video]
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: HealthCare

Post by gibson »

WickedCossack wrote:
gibson wrote:I dont disagree that Healthcare in the United States is horrible, but that's an extreme example. If you take an extreme example from any country their Healthcare system is gonna look poor.
Middle class people in the the US are almost always fine.


There's 1.25 million t1 diabetics in America. They all have to pay $6,000-$12,000 extra on top of paying for medical insurance and on top of paying 3x more in government taxes than say the UK. Some can afford it, some can't, either way they all have to go through the same experience/costs. Call 1.25 million people an extreme example if you want.
my grandfather has diabetes and he doesn't have to pay that.........
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: HealthCare

Post by gibson »

gamevideo113 wrote:
gibson wrote:I dont disagree that Healthcare in the United States is horrible, but that's an extreme example. If you take an extreme example from any country their Healthcare system is gonna look poor.
Middle class people in the the US are almost always fine.

Unfortunately that’s not an extreme example. Some medicines cost a lot more than insulin.
I mean I live in the US in a big family who have a wide array of medical issues and the most anyone has ever had to pay was 200 for a 1 time prescription. Now my dad has excellent health insurance but still. Middle class people in the US are fine, it's the lower class people who are fucked.
User avatar
Norway spanky4ever
Gendarme
iwillspankyou
Posts: 8389
Joined: Apr 13, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by spanky4ever »

@gibson who pay it then? Do he get a better deal? or do you have insurance, and somebody else pay it? (tax payers is my guess - cos after all Obama care are payed by tax money, and are subsidizing Insurcance predators)
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by WickedCossack »

lejend wrote:The guy in that Facebook post is probably complaining about ObamaCare, a government program that was ostensibly meant to help people, but only ended up making things worse. The insurance that people get through ObamaCare is utter crap. You do have coverage on paper, but when you actually need health care it is nowhere to be found; for instance, you have to pay thousands of dollars first before the insurer starts paying for your treatment.

Obama gets to brag about extending "coverage" to uninsured people, but few people see any benefits.

That's what "universal coverage" means. That's why people should be very wary of claims like, "England has 100% universal coverage." Health insurance doesn't mean health care. In Europe people have "coverage" but get denied treatment or are put on endless waiting lists. That's because resources are finite. No government law will ever change that reality.

Quoting:

I’ll have to keep doing so until I reach my max out of pocket which is $7,000. Keep in mind I DO have health insurance, blue cross and blue shield. Pretty big name. “Healthcare for all” you say, “it will be great and affordable” you say. I literally work a second job to just stay alive!! People that are unemployed and have no health insurance pay much less than I do.


So a government program had "unintended consequences" and disrupted and damaged the system. The solution then is less government, not more. The current system is not as bad as leftists claim but it is still fairly bad. The reason is too much government, not too little.


You've posted yet another entire opinion piece with no data whatsoever to substantiate what you are saying. Your first line already sums up arguing in bad faith."He's probably complaining about ObamaCare" with no justification and then you proceed to spend the entire post arguing against it.

I already made a post quite a while ago now in the institutions thread that you have not responded to and one here as well, it would be great if you could respond to those. I don't really want to have a discussion if you post feelings after feelings honestly.
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by WickedCossack »

gibson wrote:my grandfather has diabetes and he doesn't have to pay that.........


Sure, so a few questions

i) To clarify is he a t1 diabetic?
ii) Is he on any social support program? Does his age qualify him for any?
iii) What medicine/supplies does he use?
User avatar
Norway spanky4ever
Gendarme
iwillspankyou
Posts: 8389
Joined: Apr 13, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by spanky4ever »

I guess its an exercise all over again, in vain, to get any agreement with @lejend , @WickedCossack . But then again, other ppl could get interested in this debate. All evidence you can come up with, will be like sprinkling water on the goose; Lejend ;)
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: HealthCare

Post by gibson »

WickedCossack wrote:
gibson wrote:my grandfather has diabetes and he doesn't have to pay that.........


Sure, so a few questions

i) To clarify is he a t1 diabetic?
ii) Is he on any social support program? Does his age qualify him for any?
iii) What medicine/supplies does he use?
yes it's type 1. To my knowledge he isn't, he's not, he's on a University provided health insurance plan as he used to be a professor. He takes insulin daily. Like I said, if you're a middle class person you will have good health insurance generally provided by your job, or that you pay for through your work. Our Healthcare system for middle class and rich people is just fine as middle class and rich people can easily afford good insurance. @spanky4ever middle class and upper class people in the US have good insurance, it's just poor people who are fucked.
User avatar
Norway spanky4ever
Gendarme
iwillspankyou
Posts: 8389
Joined: Apr 13, 2015

Re: HealthCare

Post by spanky4ever »

@gibson how much to you have to pay for that? To receive a good cover? And what happens if you get cancer? will it still be good enough to receive the best treatment?
What if you get a mental illness? will you receive medicine, theraphy, indoor treatment till you recover from your suicidal wishes or delutions? Im only asking out of curiosity??
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV