Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:I didn't start this, I wasn't the one who started telling them what they should do, until they started "regulating" other people's lives via social media. That's the difference.
Do we allow this?

What do (((we))) feel about this?

Is this racist?

Maybe she's secretly anti-gay and opposes the rights of kids to identify as two-spirited attack helicopters

She's probably pro-Trump too

We, the Social Media Moralising Brigade gotta do something, we need to decide whether she should be :thumbdown: or :thumbup:


Its not relevant who started. If you berate other people for something you continuously do yourself, you are simply a hypocrite. On top of that, your post was far more agressive and judgmental than anything cometk posted. So you just seemed to take out your anger on something that wasn't even part of the op. That's some juicy irony.

Half those posts seem over the top sarcastic as well. It's easy to seem like you have a righteous cause when you cherrypick your phantom enemies.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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It is relevant who started. How else could this be stopped if nobody speaks out against it? I'm talking about this moralising sort of gossip that you can see in the social media, especially when it's done by people who haven't even achieved as much as the person they're criticising. (I have nothing against Cometk, he just brought the subject up.)

But btw, weren't you like a big fan of Nietzsche? He would have most likely despised this sort of moralising gossip as an example of herd morality.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

Post by spanky4ever »

Norway - the little country of (almost) 5 mill are on the top of the medal list - HYPE for little Norway - we are doing Super Good.
And I am not even sorry for the Sweeds - who would like to kick the little brothers azz :P sorry @Gendarme not this time :P
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

Post by spanky4ever »

did you know that Aurora is Norwegian? guess not :P She is running with the best of you!!! 13 gold to Norway thus far.
she is though - so are we :P
here she comes again;
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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yeah, cold be Im a little proud of Norway!! is that bad sportmanship? lol
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:I don't even think this is a debate-worthy subject, tbh. But some people can't contain their self-righteousness on social media. Why would I pass judgement on what she did? Why would you?



Why do you pass judgment on them? Probably for the same reasons. We pass judgment all the time. Its the way we navigate the (social) world.

It seems to me the op is an example of poor taste, not a criminal offense. Yet it's not the kind of behaviour one would like to encourage, in my opinion. It should be up to the regulatory bodies of the sports committees to do something prevent behaviour like this from becoming widespread. But they are usually, if not always just mirroring public opinion. If people dont voice their disapproval of a practice, the practice will become acceptable.

Its been happening this way literally for thousands of years, or you think twitter is fundamentally different than the old wives gossip club?
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

Post by spanky4ever »

@Dolan how are your nation doing in this games? (>I dont know - no troll) but even so >(lol)
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Easy there tiger. Following and commenting on news, especially sports, is a form of entertainment. You may be reading into it a little too much. Dare I call projection?

Commenting on news? Sure, sports? Sure. Commenting on what some notable people are doing everyday, just for the sake of signalling how much better you are for passing judgement? Pathetic, imo.

Those people should get that silver medal first then comment.


Which notable silver medal did you get to justify your post authority?

You are right about the mentality part, tbh. Its the way people are raised however, and its evident in the winners as well as the losers. And depending on her motivation, the op's example is as much a display of that type of mentality as what you say.

Also not sure if that line of thought originates in aristotle, but thats trivial.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:I don't even think this is a debate-worthy subject, tbh. But some people can't contain their self-righteousness on social media. Why would I pass judgement on what she did? Why would you?



Why do you pass judgment on them? Probably for the same reasons. We pass judgment all the time. Its the way we navigate the (social) world.

It seems to me the op is an example of poor taste, not a criminal offense. Yet it's not the kind of behaviour one would like to encourage, in my opinion. It should be up to the regulatory bodies of the sports committees to do something prevent behaviour like this from becoming widespread. But they are usually, if not always just mirroring public opinion. If people dont voice their disapproval of a practice, the practice will become acceptable.

Its been happening this way literally for thousands of years, or you think twitter is fundamentally different than the old wives gossip club?

Dolan has transcended simple social discourse -- he posts on ESOC, not twitter :mad:
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:Meanwhile some people applaud some American football players for not standing up while their anthem plays. And the Twitter Moral Brigade says that's totally fine, there's no sign of disrespect there.

But if a girl takes her medal off because she's unhappy with the result, then that's such a show of disrespect, says the same social media moral brigade.


Wouldn't you rather see the reverse?
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:It is relevant who started. How else could this be stopped if nobody speaks out against it? I'm talking about this moralising sort of gossip that you can see in the social media, especially when it's done by people who haven't even achieved as much as the person they're criticising. (I have nothing against Cometk, he just brought the subject up.)

But btw, weren't you like a big fan of Nietzsche? He would have most likely despised this sort of moralising gossip as an example of herd morality.


You could say i am a fan. And i do not like this type of gossip/judgment without nuance. I personally dont feel the need to go on twitter and vent. But I don't think there is something wrong with it per se. It depends on the motivation of the one passing the judgment. There is difference between trying to humiliate the other and making clear you disagree with someones actions. Considering that the girl was in function as a public figure, and was participating in a public event, i dont think public scrutiny is out of place. It would be different if we were talking about something taking place in a private setting.

If you want to solve a problem but act in the way of the problem you want to solve, then you aren't doing a good job. Berating other people for berating other people is just a vicious circle. You can point out their mistake in a different way if you so choose.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

Post by Dolan »

umeu wrote:Its been happening this way literally for thousands of years, or you think twitter is fundamentally different than the old wives gossip club?

Yeah, that's pretty much what Twitter (and other social media) is, an old wives gossip club.

You could say i am a fan. And i do not like this type of gossip/judgment without nuance. I personally dont feel the need to go on twitter and vent. But I don't think there is something wrong with it per se. It depends on the motivation of the one passing the judgment. There is difference between trying to humiliate the other and making clear you disagree with someones actions. Considering that the girl was in function as a public figure, and was participating in a public event, i dont think public scrutiny is out of place. It would be different if we were talking about something taking place in a private setting.

As long as she didn't break any rules, I see no issue with it. She could express her upset as she wants to, imo. I don't see why the public would be entitled to censor her behaviour.

deleted_user wrote:Dolan has transcended simple social discourse -- he posts on ESOC, not twitter :mad:

I'm fine with twitter as long as it's not a gossip platform.

umeu wrote:
Dolan wrote:Meanwhile some people applaud some American football players for not standing up while their anthem plays. And the Twitter Moral Brigade says that's totally fine, there's no sign of disrespect there.

But if a girl takes her medal off because she's unhappy with the result, then that's such a show of disrespect, says the same social media moral brigade.


Wouldn't you rather see the reverse?

The first case seems more serious to me than the second. It's debatable though. I'm not a big fan of compulsory public display of respect for national symbols either.
So I would probably not care if they refused to stand while the national anthem plays either. Just as I wouldn't mind if a player who lost a match and came second place would throw their medal on the ground. As long as it doesn't hit anyone..

umeu wrote:Which notable silver medal did you get to justify your post authority?

But I didn't go on twitter to comment on what she did. My comment was more on a meta level, it's about why such discussions even take place.
Yeah, I've no qualifications or credentials to go and criticise a player publicly for showing frustration at losing a match. I mean, how's that my business?

Also not sure if that line of thought originates in aristotle, but thats trivial.

It's a well-known, commonplace line of thought from Aristotle's Politics:
Aristotle - Politics

BOOK ONE

[...]

Part V

But is there any one thus intended by nature to be a slave, and for
whom such a condition is expedient and right, or rather is not all
slavery a violation of nature?

There is no difficulty in answering this question, on grounds both
of reason and of fact. For that some should rule and others be ruled
is a thing not only necessary, but expedient; from the hour of their
birth, some are marked out for subjection, others for rule.

The context was that many people are unable to be self-sufficient, to be masters of their own lives, they have this slave mentality which makes them constantly seek to become relevant by clinging to other people's notoriety, by criticising them, gossiping about them, etc.
iwillspankyou wrote:@Dolan how are your nation doing in this games? (>I dont know - no troll) but even so >(lol)

I haven't been following the winter olympic games, but it's probably Nordic countries that get most medals, because they can train all year round in a naturally cold setting.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:As long as she didn't break any rules, I see no issue with it. She could express her upset as she wants to, imo. I don't see why the public would be entitled to censor her behaviour.

I don't know if I would use the word entitled, but public behaviour is different than private behaviour. No one should have a right to dictate what you do behind closed curtains. You can walk naked in your house all you want. But do you think everyone should be allowed to walk around naked in the street and do whatever they like? I guess you can say its against the rules, but why is it against the rules? It's because people don't agree with this behaviour. It's the same with what she did, she did break a rule, albeit an unwritten one. I think the public definitely has a "right" to respond in this case. Doesn't mean that they have a right to be judge jury and executioner. But basically, if you don't want to be judged by the public, don't become a public figure and step into the public limelight.





The first case seems more serious to me than the second. It's debatable though. I'm not a big fan of compulsory public display of respect for national symbols either.
So I would probably not care if they refused to stand while the national anthem plays either. Just as I wouldn't mind if a player who lost a match and came second place would throw their medal on the ground. As long as it doesn't hit anyone..

Sure, I'm with you on this. Other people have other opinions though, shouldn't they be allowed to express them? As long as they don't transgress any boundaries, of course.
And to put it into perspective, it's not like we're talking about your regular money-driven sports event. The olympics is there primarily for sportive and social reasons. To connect people from all over the world, and for the best athletes from each country to represent said country. So it's not that odd that sportsmanship is even more important here, since financial reasons are dropped to the background.

Personally I would prefer it this way, where the rules are informal, and discipline is applied through social channels, rather than the rules about this subject being set in stone, and discipline applied through legal justice. She can simply choose to ignore those people if she disagrees with them. And that's her prerogative.

But I didn't go on twitter to comment on what she did. My comment was more on a meta level, it's about why such discussions even take place.
Yeah, I've no qualifications or credentials to go and criticise a player publicly for showing frustration at losing a match. I mean, how's that my business?

Well, this claim is a bit problematic, don't you see? You say you should be allowed to pass judgment and complain because how else will this behaviour stop? But that's probably the exact same reasoning they use to justify their twitter posts. And can you really say there is a fundamental difference between complaining on twitter and complaining on esoc?


The context was that many people are unable to be self-sufficient, to be masters of their own lives, they have this slave mentality which makes them constantly seek to become relevant by clinging to other people's notoriety, by criticising them, gossiping about them, etc.

Yes, I know about the division applied by him, just wasn't aware he made such a claim about mentality. It seems very Nietzschean to me. But thanks for sharing.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

Post by Dolan »

umeu wrote:I don't know if I would use the word entitled, but public behaviour is different than private behaviour. No one should have a right to dictate what you do behind closed curtains. You can walk naked in your house all you want. But do you think everyone should be allowed to walk around naked in the street and do whatever they like? I guess you can say its against the rules, but why is it against the rules? It's because people don't agree with this behaviour. It's the same with what she did, she did break a rule, albeit an unwritten one. I think the public definitely has a "right" to respond in this case. Doesn't mean that they have a right to be judge jury and executioner. But basically, if you don't want to be judged by the public, don't become a public figure and step into the public limelight.

Idk, people do private gestures "in public" all the time. Like scratching themselves or talking to someone on the phone. I think what she did is something like that. A private gesture of dissatisfaction that some people take too seriously as a public display of disrespect.
Well, this claim is a bit problematic, don't you see? You say you should be allowed to pass judgment and complain because how else will this behaviour stop? But that's probably the exact same reasoning they use to justify their twitter posts. And can you really say there is a fundamental difference between complaining on twitter and complaining on esoc?

Yes, because what I did was to defend someone's right to show they don't like losing a match.
They were the ones who got butthurt about it and had to whine "disrespect" etc, when they could have just minded their own business. Once this kind of gossip gets a sounding board like Twitter it becomes more than just online whining, they're getting this impression they're the online justice brigade which needs to punish the offender of whatever is the latest fad in correctness. It's very common on Twitter.

Compared to them, I'm not doing what I'm criticising, because I'm not telling them they're disrespectful and they should censor their criticism, I'm telling them to stop acting like they're the judges of public behaviour. Because I know I'm not a judge. I'm not telling them how I think their behaviour is, I'm just telling them to stahp.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:Idk, people do private gestures "in public" all the time. Like scratching themselves or talking to someone on the phone. I think what she did is something like that. A private gesture of dissatisfaction that some people take too seriously as a public display of disrespect.

you're free to think that. Others are free to disagree. You're both free to state that publicly.


Yes, because what I did was to defend someone's right to show they don't like losing a match.
They were the ones who got butthurt about it and had to whine "disrespect" etc, when they could have just minded their own business. Once this kind of gossip gets a sounding board like Twitter it becomes more than just online whining, they're getting this impression they're the online justice brigade which needs to punish the offender of whatever is the latest fad in correctness. It's very common on Twitter.

No such right has been infringed upon, so not sure why you are defending it.

Similarly, you couldve just minded your business. But you didn't. Why? Because something happened you disagreed with. And you felt like you needed to say something about it. Seems quite like the case you're criticising.

Compared to them, I'm not doing what I'm criticising, because I'm not telling them they're disrespectful and they should censor their criticism, I'm telling them to stop acting like they're the judges of public behaviour. Because I know I'm not a judge. I'm not telling them how I think their behaviour is, I'm just telling them to stahp.


Telling people to stop acting in a particular way, that seems like something a judge would do. So I fail to see how it's different, or you fail to make a strong case. You don't have to tell them what you think of their behaviour. It's implicit when you tell them to stop.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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umeu wrote:you're free to think that. Others are free to disagree. You're both free to state that publicly.

They are interfering with the player's freedom to express dissatisfaction.
umeu wrote:Telling people to stop acting in a particular way, that seems like something a judge would do. So I fail to see how it's different, or you fail to make a strong case. You don't have to tell them what you think of their behaviour. It's implicit when you tell them to stop.

Yeah, because they are trying to limit someone's freedom to express frustration at the result.

This can only be resolved by that chick telling them to fuck off, tbh.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:you're free to think that. Others are free to disagree. You're both free to state that publicly.

They are interfering with the player's freedom to express dissatisfaction.
umeu wrote:Telling people to stop acting in a particular way, that seems like something a judge would do. So I fail to see how it's different, or you fail to make a strong case. You don't have to tell them what you think of their behaviour. It's implicit when you tell them to stop.

Yeah, because they are trying to limit someone's freedom to express frustration at the result.

This can only be resolved by that chick telling them to fuck off, tbh.


Nah they aren't. They are not a body of authority. So she doesnt have to listen. They are not in a position of power and dont have responaibility for her, so there is no abuse or conflict of interest. You are honestly making drama, and projecting motive without certainty.

Besides, the girl wasn't there in personal capacity, but as a national representative, so there is nothing weird about curbing excess behaviour.

You, as pretty much everyone else, is going about it the wrong way anyway. You can't stop ppl from passing judgment. It would be very bad if that happened, because judgment is crucial for thinking. And ww2 is a fearful example of what happens when people stop thinking. The proper reading of nietzsche is not that everyone should stop judging, but rather that one should stop caring about being judged. The most likely side effect is that vindictive judgments will become less likely, but this isnt the aim.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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umeu wrote:Nah they aren't. They are not a body of authority. So she doesnt have to listen. They are not in a position of power and dont have responaibility for her, so there is no abuse or conflict of interest. You are honestly making drama, and projecting motive without certainty.

Besides, the girl wasn't there in personal capacity, but as a national representative, so there is nothing weird about curbing excess behaviour.

She wasn't making a public gesture, though, she was making a private gesture while being in a public setting. So all those comments are nothing but gossip.
You, as pretty much everyone else, is going about it the wrong way anyway. You can't stop ppl from passing judgment. It would be very bad if that happened, because judgment is crucial for thinking. And ww2 is a fearful example of what happens when people stop thinking. The proper reading of nietzsche is not that everyone should stop judging, but rather that one should stop caring about being judged. The most likely side effect is that vindictive judgments will become less likely, but this isnt the aim.

I agree that people should stop caring about being judged, but most people are gregarious and they care a lot about other people's judgement. So it actually affects them a lot.
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Re: Winning Silver and Sportsmanship

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Dolan wrote:
umeu wrote:Nah they aren't. They are not a body of authority. So she doesnt have to listen. They are not in a position of power and dont have responaibility for her, so there is no abuse or conflict of interest. You are honestly making drama, and projecting motive without certainty.

Besides, the girl wasn't there in personal capacity, but as a national representative, so there is nothing weird about curbing excess behaviour.

She wasn't making a public gesture, though, she was making a private gesture while being in a public setting. So all those comments are nothing but gossip.
You, as pretty much everyone else, is going about it the wrong way anyway. You can't stop ppl from passing judgment. It would be very bad if that happened, because judgment is crucial for thinking. And ww2 is a fearful example of what happens when people stop thinking. The proper reading of nietzsche is not that everyone should stop judging, but rather that one should stop caring about being judged. The most likely side effect is that vindictive judgments will become less likely, but this isnt the aim.

I agree that people should stop caring about being judged, but most people are gregarious and they care a lot about other people's judgement. So it actually affects them a lot.


were gonna have to disagree then.

sure, it affects them, but just because they let it. you can control how you respond to comments of other people, you cant control them or what comments they make however. so, rather than relying upon them to avoid a situation in which you might get hurt, one should take matters into ones own hands. create your own values, and abide by them, thats what makes an ubermensch.

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