Why has the left imploded in modern times?

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United States of America vardar
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by vardar »

ye identity politics are definitely not used in the US....CLEARLY
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Gendarme wrote:Was there ever a line? Before the internet all information came from the MSM, right? It's perhaps just much more obvious now that we can compare MSM to unbiased reporters, in addition to the fact that they are threatened by the internet (hence the fake news-movement to crack down on independent journalism).


Can you name some unbiased reporters?
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Amsel_ wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:you should know then, that the "progressives" are doing pretty well, taking in to account that they have no BIG MONEY subs, just the ppls little 20 dollars. And no media coverage, and no support from DNC. Its pretty astonishing how good they are actueally doing, against all odds.

I guess it's hard to describe the "feel" of American politics. But the current system is so bad that the lack of suppression is pretty much damning evidence that a political movement is worthless. Trump is little more than an inconvenience to them; yet so much was thrown at him that multiple media outlets and social media websites have lost their credibility, and there's even talk of indicting a former FBI Director for treason. If progressives are such a threat then shouldn't they have gotten an even worse backlash?


and what's your country's identity?
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by Goodspeed »

Gendarme wrote:Was there ever a line? Before the internet all information came from the MSM, right? It's perhaps just much more obvious now that we can compare MSM to unbiased reporters, in addition to the fact that they are threatened by the internet (hence the fake news-movement to crack down on independent journalism).
Yes there was certainly more of a line. The rise of partisan media and the internet have blurred it considerably.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by Amsel_ »

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:you should know then, that the "progressives" are doing pretty well, taking in to account that they have no BIG MONEY subs, just the ppls little 20 dollars. And no media coverage, and no support from DNC. Its pretty astonishing how good they are actueally doing, against all odds.

I guess it's hard to describe the "feel" of American politics. But the current system is so bad that the lack of suppression is pretty much damning evidence that a political movement is worthless. Trump is little more than an inconvenience to them; yet so much was thrown at him that multiple media outlets and social media websites have lost their credibility, and there's even talk of indicting a former FBI Director for treason. If progressives are such a threat then shouldn't they have gotten an even worse backlash?


and what's your country's identity?

For the most part a country's identity is ineffable, metaphysical even. If you look at a small town along the Mediterranean, you can see the 'charm' it has. You'll see lots of boats and fishermen. Families are very friendly to each other. They'll have their own food and customs. You might hear stories about how the town was founded by Greeks or Phoneticians. So of course if most of those families moved to a mega-city, and we replaced them with 30 year old factory workers there would be a major difference. Habits would be different; food would be different; voting would be different; everything would change. The past people depended on the sea, but these new ones might be willing to poison the water if it means getting a pay raise.

America is similar. We have our stories about pilgrims and colonists. Our customs and history. Our wars and our peace. "Americans" start with the mayflower. That is the core of the American identity. Sure there were millions of others who came to the country, but they largely unified with "Americans." If I were to import the entire population of China, or South America, or Russia then these newcomers would have no reason to care at all about Americanism. They wouldn't see it as "their nation" they would just see it as a place they moved to because of quality of life. Others have tried to make this about race or economics, and those are certainly important issues; however, that wasn't my point. My point was that "Americans" are being supplanted with another people to fuel internationalism. My goal is to protect my nation instead of fueling capitalism. It's odd how not wanting your nation to be destroyed is considered so taboo these days.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Amsel_ wrote:
America is similar. We have our stories about pilgrims and colonists. Our customs and history. Our wars and our peace. "Americans" start with the mayflower. That is the core of the American identity. Sure there were millions of others who came to the country, but they largely unified with "Americans." If I were to import the entire population of China, or South America, or Russia then these newcomers would have no reason to care at all about Americanism. They wouldn't see it as "their nation" they would just see it as a place they moved to because of quality of life. Others have tried to make this about race or economics, and those are certainly important issues; however, that wasn't my point. My point was that "Americans" are being supplanted with another people to fuel internationalism. My goal is to protect my nation instead of fueling capitalism. It's odd how not wanting your nation to be destroyed is considered so taboo these days.


By this logic the nation has been destroyed several times over
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by gibson »

If you believe that it's okay for people to immigrate you want our country to be destroyed.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by Snuden »

Today I'll dedicate all my AoE3 games to open borders!
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by deleted_user0 »

Amsel_ wrote:For the most part a country's identity is ineffable, metaphysical even. If you look at a small town along the Mediterranean, you can see the 'charm' it has. You'll see lots of boats and fishermen. Families are very friendly to each other. They'll have their own food and customs. You might hear stories about how the town was founded by Greeks or Phoneticians. So of course if most of those families moved to a mega-city, and we replaced them with 30 year old factory workers there would be a major difference. Habits would be different; food would be different; voting would be different; everything would change. The past people depended on the sea, but these new ones might be willing to poison the water if it means getting a pay raise.


I'm not sure how this is relevant, or how this in any way illustrates "cultural" identity. I'm not asking for vague examples of a village in on the Mediterranean coast. I'm not asking for examples at all.


America is similar. We have our stories about pilgrims and colonists. Our customs and history. Our wars and our peace.

I hope you see the problems this entails? Who is included in that we? How is this group defined? Who decides which stories are canon, and worthy of being told, and which are not? And even if the event is one that impacted on everyone in a given society, as well as affected their offspring, does that mean that everyone, or even every [insert gender, race, social class, sexual orientation] has had the same experience of that event? Were the world wars the same experience for the upper class as they were for the working class, for the women as they were for the men, for white people as they were for black people? If not, then which story of our wars and peace do we tell?

"Americans" start with the mayflower.

That is convenient, even if we disregard the fact that the continent was populated already, even if we disregard the fact the norsemen attempted to settle the continent later as well, heck even if we disregard the fact that the name Americans is derived from the name Columbus gave the continent, then the Mayflower settlers were neither the first nor the last wave of puritan colonists. So why is this story elevated above all others? I'm not saying there isn't a good reason for it, but if it's a choice from a storytelling narrative aimed at creating a shared identity, rather than a fact, then why can't these choices be up for revision? Why can't they change?


That is the core of the American identity.

So, basically, all you need to do to be an american, is to know the story of the Mayflower? Or am I misunderstanding your point? So every time I hear someone rambling on about the constitution, the anthem, the civil war, the american dream, the golden generation and their finest hour, vietnam, communism, JFK, the Alamo, and what not, I can just point out to them look, it's just about the story of the mayflower. Now STFU.



Sure there were millions of others who came to the country, but they largely unified with "Americans." If I were to import the entire population of China, or South America, or Russia then these newcomers would have no reason to care at all about Americanism. They wouldn't see it as "their nation" they would just see it as a place they moved to because of quality of life. Others have tried to make this about race or economics, and those are certainly important issues; however, that wasn't my point. My point was that "Americans" are being supplanted with another people to fuel internationalism. My goal is to protect my nation instead of fueling capitalism. It's odd how not wanting your nation to be destroyed is considered so taboo these days.
[/quote]

Disregarding the fact that pretty much anything, including nationalism, has been used and will be used by capitalism to further it's advantage, which is basically one of it's defining characteristics, because it has no ideological framework to limit it, there is nothing inherently wrong with not wanting your "nation" to be destroyed. What's wrong is to cling onto empty concepts without any honest attempt to understand not only what you are clinging onto, but also why you are clinging onto it.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

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Post by Vinyanyérë »

Amsel_ wrote:
umeu wrote:
Show hidden quotes


and what's your country's identity?

For the most part a country's identity is ineffable, metaphysical even. If you look at a small town along the Mediterranean, you can see the 'charm' it has. You'll see lots of boats and fishermen. Families are very friendly to each other. They'll have their own food and customs. You might hear stories about how the town was founded by Greeks or Phoneticians. So of course if most of those families moved to a mega-city, and we replaced them with 30 year old factory workers there would be a major difference. Habits would be different; food would be different; voting would be different; everything would change. The past people depended on the sea, but these new ones might be willing to poison the water if it means getting a pay raise.

America is similar. We have our stories about pilgrims and colonists. Our customs and history. Our wars and our peace. "Americans" start with the mayflower. That is the core of the American identity. Sure there were millions of others who came to the country, but they largely unified with "Americans." If I were to import the entire population of China, or South America, or Russia then these newcomers would have no reason to care at all about Americanism. They wouldn't see it as "their nation" they would just see it as a place they moved to because of quality of life. Others have tried to make this about race or economics, and those are certainly important issues; however, that wasn't my point. My point was that "Americans" are being supplanted with another people to fuel internationalism. My goal is to protect my nation instead of fueling capitalism. It's odd how not wanting your nation to be destroyed is considered so taboo these days.


What makes your notion of the American identity valid over any others? My notion of the American identity is precisely the desire to come here to improve one's quality of life; that's what's remained constant above all else throughout the nation's history since its colonization.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by spanky4ever »

Goodspeed wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:btw, I will give a response to OP - because I like the way he/she is making a good point.
That's interesting, I found both the point and the way it was made severely lacking


well, you could say that, but I was merly giving him some cred for making a post on a very important issue. I did not say I was in agreement with all that he said :P
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by spanky4ever »

@InsectPoison the discussion is important - for many reasons. But first, what the hell does "liberalism" even mean in this day and age? To me its so confusing, that I do not ever use that term. But maybe you could give us some education here, since you brought it up in the first place.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by Radix_Lecti »

why u guys feeding lejend troll?
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by spanky4ever »

guess we cannot wait any longer for OP to be more spesific about what he mean by "liberal" and "liberalism" - if any of you reading this have a good take on it, please sheare it with us.
1. The left in US politics is NOT the Democratic party - not the top anyway- But
2. The "progressive" in USA are running as democrats (mainly) to overturn bought out politicians, who only survive when taking donations from Big Copr, and their superpacks
3 Bernie Sanders would have become POTUS, if the DNC had treated their candidate equally
4 AND Sanders would have beaten Trump REALLY HARD
Now tell me, where is your Democracy. and where are your liberal ideas. And you should not mix liberal with lefty - no more OP @InsectPoison If I got this wrong, please enlighten me ;) Polls had him beating Trump 20points.

What a big screw up the DNC did to you USA citizens - AND to the rest of the world. Problem is that you let them do this to you and to us. that is why we kind of loath you a bit :hmm:
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by InsectPoison »

iwillspankyou wrote:@InsectPoison the discussion is important - for many reasons. But first, what the hell does "liberalism" even mean in this day and age? To me its so confusing, that I do not ever use that term. But maybe you could give us some education here, since you brought it up in the first place.

Check the original post, i wasn't the one who wrote it.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by deleted_user »

5 pages stemmed from a sirmusket paragraph. Oof.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by deleted_user0 »

i somehow find it hard to believe that those are his original words. but who knows.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by InsectPoison »

umeu wrote:i somehow find it hard to believe that those are his original words. but who knows.

Why do you find it hard to believe?
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

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Post by gibson »

Cause it's several coherent paragraphs with decent grammar and no blatant racism
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by spanky4ever »

InsectPoison wrote:
umeu wrote:i somehow find it hard to believe that those are his original words. but who knows.

Why do you find it hard to believe?

you stole the words I guess. posted it as your own. - kind of cheating again. If you did this kind of stund in a UNI paper. you would be called a cheeter, once more :P Btw, the words where kind of inviting to a debate, but when you do not know what they are all about. its kind of stupid :lol:
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by deleted_user0 »

iwillspankyou wrote:
InsectPoison wrote:
umeu wrote:i somehow find it hard to believe that those are his original words. but who knows.

Why do you find it hard to believe?

you stole the words I guess. posted it as your own. - kind of cheating again. If you did this kind of stund in a UNI paper. you would be called a cheeter, once more :P Btw, the words where kind of inviting to a debate, but when you do not know what they are all about. its kind of stupid :lol:


eh... he quoted sirmusket. it's not plagiarism. it's kinda uninspired. But i guess he was trying to make some point. Not sure.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by InsectPoison »

iwillspankyou wrote:
InsectPoison wrote:
umeu wrote:i somehow find it hard to believe that those are his original words. but who knows.

Why do you find it hard to believe?

you stole the words I guess. posted it as your own. - kind of cheating again. If you did this kind of stund in a UNI paper. you would be called a cheeter, once more :P Btw, the words where kind of inviting to a debate, but when you do not know what they are all about. its kind of stupid :lol:

How did i steal his words? i gave him credit at the end......
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by spanky4ever »

@InsectPoisonison you are right - you only quoted something that another person prolly stole.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by Dolan »

Vinyanyérë wrote:What makes your notion of the American identity valid over any others? My notion of the American identity is precisely the desire to come here to improve one's quality of life; that's what's remained constant above all else throughout the nation's history since its colonization.
Well, then America is not a nation, but something between an airport and a marketplace.
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Re: Why has the left imploded in modern times?

Post by gibson »

Nice bump, not much to do with a global pandemic going on I guess

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