God 2.0: The free market

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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God 2.0: The free market

Post by Goodspeed »

If you are one of those people who believes an unregulated free market will solve our problems, why do you believe this? What caused you to think that a system that almost by definition benefits the few at the expense of the many, actually benefits everyone?

I ask this for science.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by HUMMAN »

What are our problems? And there is no way total free market is for the benefit of society, history is full of examples.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by fightinfrenchman »

The freer the market, the freer the people
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Goodspeed »

HUMMAN wrote:What are our problems?
We have about 99. Most relevant in this context is poverty, I suppose. And climate change
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Goodspeed »

fightinfrenchman wrote:The freer the market, the freer the people
Can you elaborate on this? What constitutes a "free" person?
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Goodspeed wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:The freer the market, the freer the people
Can you elaborate on this? What constitutes a "free" person?


I'm mostly being facetious, I do not have a problem with reasonable government regulations. But I do think markets solve a lot of problems, more efficiently than governments can
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by forgrin »

Many people seem to think that a free market is simply a supply/demand system without any external factors/gov't rules/regulations etc. This is not true. If you actually read into the historical concept of a free market it is always with certain rules/stipulations that allow the market to function. Minimized gov't intervention is one of these tenants, but it's not the only one. See below; these rules must be working for the free market to operate properly.

- All externalities must be priced properly (eg pollution, etc).

- No single business or entity can have inordinate control over other businesses or the market (no monopolies or even high market stakes).

- The market must be able to grow infinitely, as the system is driven by growth rather than stasis.

You can already see that the third is functionally impossible, and the other two aren't actually followed in most free market systems. The ones that attempt to adhere to these rules with systems like cap-and-trade on carbon are then called anti-free market... The hypocrisy is strong.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by fightinfrenchman »

We need a carbon tax so the markets can effectively deal with climate change
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by HUMMAN »

Goodspeed wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:What are our problems?
We have about 99. Most relevant in this context is poverty, I suppose. And climate change


Dont know about global warming but social inequalities are subjective. Today a mininum waged worker in UK may be unsatisfied because he is poor but the health conditions nutrition and techology he has is even better than kings in the past. So its mostly about not what you have, but what others have.
Wild capitalism is what creates economic bubbles since only motivates gaining more. It's kind of legalizing dupering. There were medicine companies who also had power in agriculture and used certain toxins to sell more drug etc. Total free market is close to stealing, killing(wars are example).
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Mitoe »

fightinfrenchman wrote:We need a carbon tax so the markets can effectively deal with climate change

A carbon tax only works if there are good alternatives available. We have a carbon tax where I live in Canada, and all it's really done is force companies to add $50 to my utility bill every month, without really making any changes on their end.

If there was a good alternative to it I would definitely get it, but there doesn't seem to be. It just doesn't incentivize the development of alternatives well enough, I think.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Jam »

You can't have a free market without regulations, it's not like big companies are going to play nice and give smaller ones a fair chance. A market where businesses can do whatever they want is not a free market.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by deleted_user »

It's kind of like math, you know how probabilities can do that future thing, or like group theory, A and B and in between, I mean think of what've Locke said, I mean Plato, there should be no poetry in the economy, it's as they say, a fee market is a math market, are numbers real? Of course idiot. No numbers in Homer. But a not free market, isn't that bad? Yes. Or maybe yesn't. Can the meme market thrive without regulation? I support an economy based on OC content. Mod the ear and unemployment will go down. But wait, is a free market slave to human fault and really shackled? I think my rent is too high. Actuaries think they can figure how long I'll live and then companies make a profit out of my paying to not die.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

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deleted_user wrote:It's kind of like math, you know how probabilities can do that future thing, or like group theory, A and B and in between, I mean think of what've Locke said, I mean Plato, there should be no poetry in the economy, it's as they say, a fee market is a math market, are numbers real? Of course idiot. No numbers in Homer. But a not free market, isn't that bad? Yes. Or maybe yesn't. Can the meme market thrive without regulation? I support an economy based on OC content. Mod the ear and unemployment will go down. But wait, is a free market slave to human fault and really shackled? I think my rent is too high. Actuaries think they can figure how long I'll live and then companies make a profit out of my paying to not die.


Some people may be confused but I know this is a direct quote from one of Trump's rallies.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by forgrin »

Mitoe wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:We need a carbon tax so the markets can effectively deal with climate change

A carbon tax only works if there are good alternatives available. We have a carbon tax where I live in Canada, and all it's really done is force companies to add $50 to my utility bill every month, without really making any changes on their end.

If there was a good alternative to it I would definitely get it, but there doesn't seem to be. It just doesn't incentivize the development of alternatives well enough, I think.


Where do you live in Canada? In BC there was basically no change to the utilities because we're already on renewable power (hydro). The passing on of the cost is intended to get people to advocate for a renewable/non carbon alternative, not to directly change the provider's behaviour. Of course there can be other factors, like a gov't-given monopoly on power generation that stops you from choosing alternatives, but that's the idea behind it.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Mitoe »

@forgrin Alberta, probably the worst place to be for the carbon tax.

Yes, that makes sense. My statement is based completely on limited experience/knowledge :P

Regardless, though, it will be many years before there's a good alternative in my area, I think.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Darwin_ »

Free markets are a form of social darwinism, which is where most of the controversy seems to arise. I personally understand both the positive and negative opinions, and I think neither are wrong, rather they just represent different priorities visa-vie quality of life and the betterment of humanity.

Capitalism, at least pure capitalism, rewards intelligent and driven people, and I think the problems that many have with modern capitalism is that there are too few people being rewarded. While I think this is mostly true, the extent to which it is is blown out of proportion. The issue now is that the second there starts to be any sort of government regulation, the game is totally changed. It ceases to become purely about who can create the best product at the best price and market and distribute it the best, and instead those who can lobby the most effectively and make the government their ally are rewarded, which is very much a problem. This relates to my political view in that I am generally against the capitalism as it is designed and administrated today, but I am mostly in favour of pure capitalism with no governmental involvement. The main issue with a completely free market is that food prices would most likely be comparatively very high without the usual government subsides, and that is, at least in my opinion, one of the largest roadblocks to a functioning pure capitalistic system in today's world. Other than food and agriculture, I generally think capitalism is a great system.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Mitoe »

Darwin_ wrote:Other than food and agriculture, I generally think capitalism is a great system.

Healthcare?
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

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Ethical consumption does not exist in late stage capitalism.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by deleted_user »

Darwin_ wrote:Capitalism, at least pure capitalism, rewards intelligent and driven people, and I think the problems that many have with modern capitalism is that there are too few people being rewarded. While I think this is mostly true, the extent to which it is is blown out of proportion

This is a really big claim to make. Wealth inequality is kind of staggering.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by oxaloacetate »

Darwin_ wrote:Free markets are a form of social darwinism, which is where most of the controversy seems to arise. I personally understand both the positive and negative opinions, and I think neither are wrong, rather they just represent different priorities visa-vie quality of life and the betterment of humanity.
Capitalism, at least pure capitalism, rewards intelligent and driven people

Accurate enough. Capitalism, like any other selective system acting like a sieve, is predisposed to be dominated by individuals with a high IQ. This is probably the same effect as is observed between IQ and school results (correlation ~0.8) or IQ and high-end jobs(https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/39 ... 7#13956577).

Darwin_ wrote:and I think the problems that many have with modern capitalism is that there are too few people being rewarded.

My view is of a contrary nature. Our views may be opposite due to the lacking clearity in what you mean by the word "reward" in this instance.

I'm going to assume your statement about too few people being rewarded pertains to the owner/adventure capitalist side of the equartion, and not the workers. An unregulated capitalistic setting favours the formation of all-dominating companies (pseudo-monopolies, monopolies); creating a situation which definitely decreases the amount of people rewarded and massively increases the economic gap within a society.

In other words, regulations can increase the competetivness within a field making it more productive, better (cheaper or increasing the quality of the product) for consumers and make sure the workers have better working conditions.

Are you denying any of this or have I misunderstood your point?

Darwin_ wrote:The issue now is that the second there starts to be any sort of government regulation, the game is totally changed. It ceases to become purely about who can create the best product at the best price and market and distribute it the best, and instead those who can lobby the most effectively and make the government their ally are rewarded, which is very much a problem.

Maybe in the U.S. This is a far cry from the reality of what it is like in the developed world.

Darwin_ wrote:I am mostly in favour of pure capitalism with no governmental involvement. The main issue with a completely free market is that food prices would most likely be comparatively very high without the usual government subsides,

There is not one main issue with a completely free market; there are in fact too many to mention. Corporations polluting and destroying the world bit by bit. Corporations abusing the work force is another. Why do you think child labour is a thing of the past in the west, but still exist in the east? It begins with R and ends with egulations.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by chris1089 »

oxaloacetate wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:Free markets are a form of social darwinism, which is where most of the controversy seems to arise. I personally understand both the positive and negative opinions, and I think neither are wrong, rather they just represent different priorities visa-vie quality of life and the betterment of humanity.
Capitalism, at least pure capitalism, rewards intelligent and driven people

Accurate enough. Capitalism, like any other selective system acting like a sieve, is predisposed to be dominated by individuals with a high IQ. This is probably the same effect as is observed between IQ and school results (correlation ~0.8) or IQ and high-end jobs(https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/39 ... 7#13956577).

IQ has very little to do with outcome. So called environmental factors, your upbringing and factors based on what your worldview (such as what you are working for; what your goal in life is) make a much larger influence. The belief that how people's genetics determined how well they would do was a large factor in driving eugenics in the 19th century. This video in general is very inciteful but specifically this part addresses this argument https://youtu.be/U7hmTRT8tb4?t=362


Darwin_ wrote:The issue now is that the second there starts to be any sort of government regulation, the game is totally changed. It ceases to become purely about who can create the best product at the best price and market and distribute it the best, and instead those who can lobby the most effectively and make the government their ally are rewarded, which is very much a problem.

Maybe in the U.S. This is a far cry from the reality of what it is like in the developed world.
Do you mean third world countries, first world countries or newly industrialised countries? No country currently has a truly free market and most countries outside of first world countries are not even close.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by chris1089 »

Goodspeed wrote:If you are one of those people who believes an unregulated free market will solve our problems, why do you believe this? What caused you to think that a system that almost by definition benefits the few at the expense of the many, actually benefits everyone?

I ask this for science.

I think that anyone who believes there is any solution to all our problems is naive. The human condition is flawed, we act selfishly, irrationally and have to resist doing evil. Anyone who states there is a blanket solution is wrong so the premise of this question is rather biased as it mischaracterises anyone who believes in a free market to any extent.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by Goodspeed »

There are actually people who think an unregulated free market has a way of working out the solution for every problem. At least, the economic ones. But the second part of my post is not there for no reason; why is there this faith in the trickle down economy, where an unregulated free market has a way of (economically) benefiting everyone?
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by chris1089 »

Goodspeed wrote:There are actually people who think an unregulated free market has a way of working out the solution for every problem. At least, the economic ones. But the second part of my post is not there for no reason; why is there this faith in the trickle down economy, where an unregulated free market has a way of (economically) benefiting everyone?
At least personally, I don't think the free market is a solution. I think it is the least bad system. Socialism, communism and fascism have been tried and have failed numerous times around the world : think India in the 60s, China in the 50s, Russia, Venuzuela now, Failed strongmen in the middle east and Africa... the list goes on. By contrast, countries such as the UK, Netherlands, US, Germany who have adopted (classical) liberal values of freedom and allow entrepreneurship, free(ish) trade and only mainly regulate just for safety, the environment and most important services (such as health insurance, NHS) are very well off. Even by modern standards, ignoring millenia where the richest were in today's poverty, even those living on the minimum wage in these countries have a high standard of living. Many have a car, almost all have a TV, their quality of nutrition, particularly in the Netherlands, is high and they generally have a better life than most people in most other countries around the world.

As for the trickle down theory, this is a misrepresentation of the free market used by (in the UK) the left.
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Re: God 2.0: The free market

Post by matty1248 »

A government could be expected to ensure that we have potential access to our fair share and no more, it should not be expected to solve all our problems. A true measure of what our fair share is is relative to the global population and how much space is available per capita, this should not include the subsidy which we are currently afforded in the way of subterranian depletable resources, only what is available in terms of surface land and sea area and sunlight etc. Whether there is a big gap between the rich and the poor in financial terms is not significant, this is only an issue of jealousy.
Issue's of lobbying and other 'behind closed doors' activity is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of how true capitalism is kept from us, the bigger problems are in international areas. A free market in global terms would see countries like China and India having access to trade in oil and other crucial resources in competition with the west. Instead the west ensures the trade of these resources amongst their ally's at gunpoint, comparing the price they give with the price they gave the previous regime they overthrew rather than what other developing countries would be prepared to pay.
The problems in western society are not, for the most part, to do with actual government structure and no one could convincingly claim there is a system which can 'solve' all 'our problems', the problems are also in large part media based and to do with the sense of greed and entitlement fed to us through those outlets. Under many government regimes it is all the citizens can do to seek social justice, the thought of personal wealth will take a back seat to this as it would for us.
Personally, i believe in capitalism as someone with experience of running my own business, and thereafter as someone who has worked within a few companies and has felt the frustration of conservatism therein. Socialistic/communistic government structures reach their limits when it comes to creative and developing industries as does capitalism to some extent depending on scale, that is how the limits of socialism were reached in most western societies many decades ago.
At the current time pretty much every citizen in western societies has access to far more than their fair share, they also share common ground in still wanting more than they have. If you look in historic terms as to living conditions, health conditions, social conditions you simply cannot argue that (the current incarnation of) 'capitalism' is at the expense of the many, the many have gained massively in terms of physical wellbeing - in western society.
The clash between free markets and environmental issue's is a big one, you simply cannot say that to take from the environment can be corrected by paying some sum to the government. The feigned simplicity of this problem by our governments is shocking and the taxation is bogus, the CO2 reduction targets do not exceed to rate at which the sources of fuel are depleting anyway. Twenty years ago resource depletion was a mainstream issue, now our media invites us to think that CO2 is the singular issue and to forget the fact that what they are taxing us for will not run out in advance of their targets. This is an issue which government must intervene in in better ways, however they would rather support their own greed.
The only thing better than the governmental system of capitalism is a non governmental system of anarchy, this cannot be achieved untill technology allows it, this is not to say that true capitalism, if we were to achieve it, could solve all of our problems.

PS. When i say this is all we should expect from our governments, i believe that a true form of democracy should not depend on government for anything other than financial issues. Issues independant of finance should be decided directly and individually by the people if we are to believe we have anything approaching
democracy, not as part of a large convoluted election campaign.

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