Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

Ok, so let's have a frank discussion about the subject of nationality and (cultural) heritage. I want to explore this through the question "Who is Dutch?", by using the royal family and my own family as an example.

Some background information:
The royal family of the Netherlands is the House of Orange-Nassau. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Orange-Nassau
My family is quite diverse and spans people from 2 continents in the direct bloodline (grandparents, parents and siblings), 4 continents in close relatives (aunts, uncles, and cousins) and all 6 continents in distant relatives (2nd, 3rd, etc cousins).

Approach:
I will first show some pictures, and ask you to answer the question "Who is Dutch?
Then I will expand by giving more information, asking the same question over and over, until we have found a way to establish why someone is or isn't Dutch or any other nationality/heritage, or until we've concluded something else.


Format:
Everyone will get a picture and a number. You look at the picture and if available, read the information. Then you say who is Dutch and who isn't, according to you.

You can do so by simply listing the number and saying "yes" or "no". Like this:

1: yes
2: no
3: yes
4: yes

At first it will be guessing for most of you, but when more information is released, hopefully we can find some arguments as well.


Remarks:
I have chosen the approach, but I honestly don't know the answer to the question, and I hope we can get some good discussion going and maybe some answers.

This is a discussion about nationality and heritage, not about race or ethnicity, although it may be touched upon briefly in some cases.

I'm sure there will be plenty of trolls. The mods may or may not take action. For those looking to have a serious discussion, I ask you kindly to use quotes, and to use the format provided above when answering the questions. This way it should be easier to weed out those who are serious and those who are just trolling.

Finally, the pictures are not actually my family members, but the pictures are chosen for general resemblance. The rest of the info is as accurate as I can make it.


@InsectPoison @Gendarme @Amsel_ @princeofkabul @AraGun @gibson @Kaiserklein @gryphoon94 @fightinfrenchman
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

Round 2:

Please answer the question "Who is Dutch" again, based on the information provided below. Take the background information into account, and please use the format.
The numbers of round 2 do not correspond to the numbers next to the pictures in round 1 (aka #1 in round 1 and #1 in round 2 aren't necessarily the same person), and the numbers between the different categories don't correspond either (aka #1 in category X in round 2 isn't necessarily the same person as #1 in category Y in round 2)


Category 1: Time lived in country & language proficiency (numbers don't correspond with the pictures)
[spoiler=spoiler]1: This person has lived in the Netherlands for the past 15 years or so. Speaks Dutch fluently.
2: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life, apart from a spell of 10 years living abroad as an adult. Speaks Dutch fluently.
3: This person hasn't lived in the Netherlands. Doesn't speak dutch.
4: This person has lived in the Netherlands for the first 10 years of their life. Used to speak Dutch fluently. Now only remembers a few words.
5: This person lived somewhere else for the first 10 years of their life. Has lived in the Netherlands ever since. Speaks Dutch fluently.
6: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life. Speaks Dutch fluently.
7: This person has lived somewhere else for the first 5 years of their life. Has lived in the Netherlands ever since, apart from living abroad for 10 years as an adult. Speaks Dutch fluently.
8: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life. Speaks Dutch fluently.
9: This person has never lived in the Netherlands. Doesn't speak Dutch.
10: This person has never lived in the Netherlands. Doesn't speak Dutch.
11: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life. Speaks Dutch fluently.
12: This person lived in the Netherlands their entire life before moving abroad recently. Speaks Dutch fluently.
13: This person lived somewhere else for the first 10 years of their life. Has lived in the Netherlands ever since. Speaks Dutch fluently.[/spoiler]


Category 2: Place of birth & passport (numbers don't correspond with the pictures)
[spoiler=spoiler]1: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
2: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
3: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
4: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Doesn't have a Dutch passport.
5: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Doesn't have a Dutch passport.
6: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
7: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
8: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Doesn't have a Dutch passport.
9: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
10: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
11: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
12: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
13: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.[/spoiler]

Category 3: Parents & grandparents (numbers correspond with the pictures)
[spoiler=spoiler]1: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
2: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
3: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
4: This person has 2 Dutch grandparents and 2 Canadian grandparents. This person has 1 Dutch parent and 1 Canadian parent.
5: This person has 1 Dutch, 1 Canadian and 2 Philippine grandparents. This person has a Dutch or Canadian parent and 1 Philippine parent.
6: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
7: This person has 2 Dutch grandparents and 2 Australian Grandparents. This person has 1 Dutch parent and 1 Australian parent.
8: This person has 4 grandparents from Guinea-Bissau and 2 parents from Guinea-Bissau.
9: This person has 2 Dutch grandparents and 2 grandparents from Guinea-Bissau. This person has 1 Dutch parent and 1 parent from Guinea-Bissau.
10: This person has 4 grandparents from Guinea-Bissau and 2 parents from Guinea-Bissau.
11: This person has 3 German grandparents, and one Dutch grandparent. This person has 1 German parent and 1 German or Dutch parent.
12:This person has 2 Argentinian grandparents, 1 German grandparent and 1 German or Dutch grandparent. This person has 1 Argentinian and 1 German or Dutch parent.
13: This person has 4 Argentinian grandparents and 2 Argentinian parents. (Hard to find info, might be incorrect. 1 side of the family might be from another S. American country)[/spoiler]


You can copy the answer format below. Yes / No should suffice. Please put the category above your answers.

Category [insert number]
1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:
11:
12:
13:


Some extra remarks:







Ok, let's kick off round 1 with just pictures. Who is Dutch? Please take the background information into account.

1.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

2.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

3.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

4.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

5.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
*don't mind the text on the picture.

6.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

7.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

8.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

9.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

10.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

11.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

12.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

13.
[spoiler=spoiler]Image[/spoiler]

Round 1 Results
[spoiler=spoiler]round 1 results:
1: 4 y
2: 3 y
3: 6 y
4: 4 y
5: 2 y
6: 4 y
7: 5 y
8: 1 y
9: 3 y
10: 1 y
11: 7 y
12: 6 y
13: 3 y[/spoiler]
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Post by japanesegeneral »

Time to lock off topic for good.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Post by fightinfrenchman »

1: No
2: No
3: No
4: No
5: No
6: No
7: No
8: No
9: No
10: No
11: Yes
12: No
13: No
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by yemshi »

1: Yes
2: Yes
3: Yes
4: Yes
5: Yes
6: Yes
7: Yes
8: No
9: Yes
10: No
11: Yes
12: Yes
13: No
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

fightinfrenchman wrote:1: No
2: No
3: No
4: No
5: No
6: No
7: No
8: No
9: No
10: No
11: Yes
12: No
13: No


I'm not sure if this is a serious reply, but I think it is, so I'll just say this: It's not meant to trick you, please take the background information into account. The pictures resemble members of my family and members of the royal house. Feel free to edit your answer if that changes your opinion.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by japanesegeneral »

The last 3 are all parts of the royal family. How can you guys fail there?
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by fightinfrenchman »

umeu wrote:
I'm not sure if this is a serious reply, but I think it is, so I'll just say this: It's not meant to trick you, please take the background information into account. The pictures resemble members of my family and members of the royal house. Feel free to edit your answer if that changes your opinion.


Well I think the one guy is from Bram's profile pic so I guessed he is Dutch, everybody else I don't have enough info so I would have to assume they're not, given the fact that most people are not.\

japanesegeneral wrote:The last 3 are all parts of the royal family. How can you guys fail there?


Why would I know who the members of the Dutch royal family are?
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
umeu wrote:
I'm not sure if this is a serious reply, but I think it is, so I'll just say this: It's not meant to trick you, please take the background information into account. The pictures resemble members of my family and members of the royal house. Feel free to edit your answer if that changes your opinion.


Well I think the one guy is from Bram's profile pic so I guessed he is Dutch, everybody else I don't have enough info so I would have to assume they're not, given the fact that most people are not.\

japanesegeneral wrote:The last 3 are all parts of the royal family. How can you guys fail there?


Why would I know who the members of the Dutch royal family are?


Yes, I understand, that's why I say that you should take the background information into account. I mean you can stand by your answer and it would be legit. You don't have sufficient information at this point, so this guess would be as good as any, I suppose.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by duckzilla »

This is a difficult matter and I think the answer to "Who is Dutch?" is highly subjective. There is no consensus for a set of criteria (e.g. language, religion, skin color, etc.) to base nationality or cultural affiliation on. It often leads peope to concede "Dutchness" to anyone who says that he/she feels Dutch.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Radix_Lecti »

We're too young to talk about heritage and culture.
Best you could describe the Dutch is that we're the tiny cultural waste drain of Europe.
Everything we own and what we are has been stolen one way or the other.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

sure, valid points by both of you. Although I don't agree we're too young, perhaps some members are, but in general I don't think most people who frequent off topic are too young for it.

Feel free to join the experiment and fill in the form :)
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user »

I'm Canadian.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by yemshi »

deleted_user wrote:I'm Canadian.

Good point.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by momuuu »

The best way to determine if someone is Dutch is the clothes they wear and the way they move/interact. Many of these pictures feature men in suits, which look like typical white man. Number 5 looks like she definitely could've bought her clothes in NL, while number 8 doesnt. The first one wears clothes like my grandfather used to and the environment looks like what my grandmother's looked like so I could see how that one is dutch.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

momuuu wrote:The best way to determine if someone is Dutch is the clothes they wear and the way they move/interact. Many of these pictures feature men in suits, which look like typical white man. Number 5 looks like she definitely could've bought her clothes in NL, while number 8 doesnt. The first one wears clothes like my grandfather used to and the environment looks like what my grandmother's looked like so I could see how that one is dutch.

You guys are getting too hung up on minor details. It's not a quiz or a trick question. There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm not asking you to tell me if they live in the Netherlands, in which case your approach would be a sound one, I guess. I'm asking you who is Dutch, which, unless you define being Dutch only by having residence in the Netherlands, isn't limited to that.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by fightinfrenchman »

umeu wrote:I'm asking you who is Dutch, which, unless you define being Dutch only by having residence in the Netherlands, isn't limited to that.


Well that's how I would define it
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
umeu wrote:I'm asking you who is Dutch, which, unless you define being Dutch only by having residence in the Netherlands, isn't limited to that.


Well that's how I would define it


that's fine. Then you can use Jerom's approach to sort through the pictures :)
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Post by Gendarme »

Nationality has more than one meaning, and it is usually obvious from the context what it means. For example, it could refer to the degree of adoption of the national culture (which also differs between sub-contexts), and it could merely refer to citizenship. It is "defined" to mean different things, rather than having one meaning that we are supposed to figure out.

Furthermore, I don't think portraits increase one's success in predictions of nationalities to any non-negligible degree in general.

This "game" seems pointless, and obviously so. I cannot help but think that there is a straw man at play later down the line.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

Gendarme wrote:Nationality has more than one meaning, and it is usually obvious from the context what it means. For example, it could refer to the degree of adoption of the national culture (which also differs between sub-contexts), and it could merely refer to citizenship. It is "defined" to mean different things, rather than having one meaning that we are supposed to figure out.

Furthermore, I don't think portraits increase one's success in predictions of nationalities to any non-negligible degree in general.

This "game" seems pointless, and obviously so. I cannot help but think that there is a straw man at play later down the line.



I never said that there is one meaning that we are supposed to figure out. All these things you say may very well be true.
And I hope that we could arrive there in a structured way, so there are arguments on the table as well, with some data showing what people understand under the concept, rather than just statements, which put the way you put them, don't really mean anything. I don't really agree that it's defined to mean many different things in many different contexts though, although in practice that's definitely how it's used, which is the fate of most words, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.

The portraits are just there to form a starting point, from which we can progress. And I've chosen only portraits exactly because it doesn't really give sufficient information. The fact that you think that there is an ulterior motive or another play, only reflects your own paranoia. I've tried to make clear already that there isn't a right or wrong answer.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Post by duckzilla »

Radix_Lecti wrote:We're too young to talk about heritage and culture.
Best you could describe the Dutch is that we're the tiny cultural waste drain of Europe.
Everything we own and what we are has been stolen one way or the other.

I think the history and genesis of the Dutch people is quite interesting. For me, this starts with the fact that the Netherlands belong to the most densely populated and richest areas of Europe (at least in the last 1000 years), which in general can benefit a common identity. At the same time, the Netherlands, though incorporated into the Holy Roman Empire, has never been under direct influence by the common German institutions (Reichstag etc.), since they were part of Lotharingia (later also the duchy of Burgundy). When the Habsburg aquired the region via inheritance, they also did not want it to become part of the internal HRE structure, since they could exert more direct control (taxes and recruits!) when they keep the Netherlands in this semi-attached status (which was quite comparable to the northern italian HRE provinces). Apparently, the Dutch (and also the Walloons/Alsatians/Lorrainians) were not used to being taxed as heavily as the Habsburgs planned it. Also there might have been legitimacy issues with the spanish branch of the house of Habsburg. The reformation came quite in time for the Netherlands to find a further reason to separate from the Habsburg (and the HRE later-on). Long story short: the Netherlands formed a cultural identity (not "national" up to now), mostly born out of resentment against more direct rule, and broke away from the Sacrum Imperium Romanum.

You are Dutch if you do not like too much direct governmental control.
Whatever is written above: this is no financial advice.

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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Amsel_ »

1. Looks English
2. Looks Jewish
3. Needs a nap, but is probably Dutch.
4. I see a lot of German in him. Although, I don't know if there's any non-linguistic differences between the Dutch and Germans.
5. Lol
6. Really conflicted on this one.
7. 100% normal, Dutch.
8. Extremely Negroid phenotype. I doubt she's even mixed, not Dutch.
9. Definitely mixed. Could be South African. Wouldn't consider Dutch.
10. Still not taking the b8
11. Looks like the Florida Commissioner of Agriculture, but a lot whiter. I'll say yes.
12. Yes
13. Looks kind of Brazilian. Although, I've seen lots of Iberians and Hispanics that look similar. Probably not Dutch.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

Amsel_ wrote:1. Looks English
2. Looks Jewish
3. Needs a nap, but is probably Dutch.
4. I see a lot of German in him. Although, I don't know if there's any non-linguistic differences between the Dutch and Germans.
5. Lol
6. Really conflicted on this one.
7. 100% normal, Dutch.
8. Extremely Negroid phenotype. I doubt she's even mixed, not Dutch.
9. Definitely mixed. Could be South African. Wouldn't consider Dutch.
10. Still not taking the b8
11. Looks like the Florida Commissioner of Agriculture, but a lot whiter. I'll say yes.
12. Yes
13. Looks kind of Brazilian. Although, I've seen lots of Iberians and Hispanics that look similar. Probably not Dutch.


simple yes or no would do... but I I'll take it. I guess it's clear enough what's yes and no.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by gibson »

You can't tell someomes nationally be looking at them, I'm not an idiot like amsel. You can make an educated guess in the same way as if you'd asked people to guess personality type based on a picture, but there's no way to know with any amount of certainty.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:The best way to determine if someone is Dutch is the clothes they wear and the way they move/interact. Many of these pictures feature men in suits, which look like typical white man. Number 5 looks like she definitely could've bought her clothes in NL, while number 8 doesnt. The first one wears clothes like my grandfather used to and the environment looks like what my grandmother's looked like so I could see how that one is dutch.

You guys are getting too hung up on minor details. It's not a quiz or a trick question. There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm not asking you to tell me if they live in the Netherlands, in which case your approach would be a sound one, I guess. I'm asking you who is Dutch, which, unless you define being Dutch only by having residence in the Netherlands, isn't limited to that.

I'm not getting hung up on minor details. I'm trying to actually answer the question, which is only reasonably possible using some of those methods I used. The problem is that a Dutch race does not exist or at least not anymore (though it probably never really has). Maybe there are some more prevalent characteristics in the Netherlands, however this has almost zero meaning as it'd be impossible to tell apart someone with a partial Scandinavian, German, Belgian, British (or more exotic countries) heritage from someone 'purely Dutch' based on those few characteristics. So that means there's no clearly defined Dutch race, and thus we have to at least partially look at culture/ancestors/if they are from the Netherlands or have lived there. There are two approaches: Either you conclude that black people just aren't Dutch by definition (the thing you're fishing for, it appears) or you are reasonable and conclude that there's no saying.

I am very Dutch for example. As far as I know I'm at worst 15/16 dutch, although probably even Dutcher. However, due to the funny way genes work I don't look Dutch, I actually look mediterrenean (btw, if you were interested in doing a serious experiment you'd have included asian, arabic, indian, hispanic and eastern european looking people too - unless you wanted to only prove theres some discrimination of black people I guess). If you took all my friends, and were told to pick one with italian/french/spanish roots, I think you'd always guess its me. Which would be wrong, simply because you can't just look at someone and determine something like that, because the different countries don't actually represent different races.

The only way to actually even try to answer the question is to look at the details of the pictures and wonder if there are any hints pointing towards Dutchness. Otherwise answering the question is simply blind guessing.

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