Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

@gibson i already mentioned it's a guess. And it's supposed to be a guess. But just because it's a guess doesn't mean there are no criteria or arguments applied. You don't have to be certain, It's not a quiz... There's no right or wrong answer.

The idea was to introduce more but still only partial information, based on different criteria to see how this affects people's judgment. Finally, again, with all information put together, and see if this makes a difference. We can then look at why it does or doesn't. But still in any of the rounds there isn't really a good or bad answer.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by momuuu »

What's the point of putting a blindfold on people and then telling them to guess what object you're holding in front of them?
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by gibson »

umeu wrote:@gibson i already mentioned it's a guess. And it's supposed to be a guess. But just because it's a guess doesn't mean there are no criteria or arguments applied. You don't have to be certain, It's not a quiz... There's no right or wrong answer.

The idea was to introduce more but still only partial information, based on different criteria to see how this affects people's judgment. Finally, again, with all information put together, and see if this makes a difference. We can then look at why it does or doesn't. But still in any of the rounds there isn't really a good or bad answer.
I just think this whole this is dumb because you're doing it to try to prove a point, but the people on this forum who either didn't pass biology in highschool or are just racist aren't gonna learn anything from this elaborate scenario, just look at amsel's post. "This one is clearly negroid, so not Dutch". He's trying to be clever and "trigger the sjws" but at the same time his actual statement is just so ignorant and dumb it gives me a headache.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

momuuu wrote:
umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:The best way to determine if someone is Dutch is the clothes they wear and the way they move/interact. Many of these pictures feature men in suits, which look like typical white man. Number 5 looks like she definitely could've bought her clothes in NL, while number 8 doesnt. The first one wears clothes like my grandfather used to and the environment looks like what my grandmother's looked like so I could see how that one is dutch.

You guys are getting too hung up on minor details. It's not a quiz or a trick question. There is no right or wrong answer here. I'm not asking you to tell me if they live in the Netherlands, in which case your approach would be a sound one, I guess. I'm asking you who is Dutch, which, unless you define being Dutch only by having residence in the Netherlands, isn't limited to that.

I'm not getting hung up on minor details. I'm trying to actually answer the question, which is only reasonably possible using some of those methods I used. The problem is that a Dutch race does not exist or at least not anymore (though it probably never really has). Maybe there are some more prevalent characteristics in the Netherlands, however this has almost zero meaning as it'd be impossible to tell apart someone with a partial Scandinavian, German, Belgian, British (or more exotic countries) heritage from someone 'purely Dutch' based on those few characteristics. So that means there's no clearly defined Dutch race, and thus we have to at least partially look at culture/ancestors/if they are from the Netherlands or have lived there. There are two approaches: Either you conclude that black people just aren't Dutch by definition (the thing you're fishing for, it appears) or you are reasonable and conclude that there's no saying.

I am very Dutch for example. As far as I know I'm at worst 15/16 dutch, although probably even Dutcher. However, due to the funny way genes work I don't look Dutch, I actually look mediterrenean (btw, if you were interested in doing a serious experiment you'd have included asian, arabic, indian, hispanic and eastern european looking people too - unless you wanted to only prove theres some discrimination of black people I guess). If you took all my friends, and were told to pick one with italian/french/spanish roots, I think you'd always guess its me. Which would be wrong, simply because you can't just look at someone and determine something like that, because the different countries don't actually represent different races.

The only way to actually even try to answer the question is to look at the details of the pictures and wonder if there are any hints pointing towards Dutchness. Otherwise answering the question is simply blind guessing.


I agree that it's not perfect, as I said the pictures are not the actual people, merely a general representation. That's what I meant with minor details, as looking at clothes isn't really going to be worthwhile because of that.

I don't want people to conclude anything based on color of skin, but if they do, it's as acceptable as any other answer. The reason there are no people of the descent you mentioned is, because if you'd read the op, I'm using my family as an example, and i don't have family that is arab, inuit or indian afaik.

The point of the blindfold is merely to see the reasoning used by people. Yours, by looking at the clothes etc, is definitely valid, a blind guess would also be valid.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

gibson wrote:
umeu wrote:@gibson i already mentioned it's a guess. And it's supposed to be a guess. But just because it's a guess doesn't mean there are no criteria or arguments applied. You don't have to be certain, It's not a quiz... There's no right or wrong answer.

The idea was to introduce more but still only partial information, based on different criteria to see how this affects people's judgment. Finally, again, with all information put together, and see if this makes a difference. We can then look at why it does or doesn't. But still in any of the rounds there isn't really a good or bad answer.
I just think this whole this is dumb because you're doing it to try to prove a point, but the people on this forum who either didn't pass biology in highschool or are just racist aren't gonna learn anything from this elaborate scenario, just look at amsel's post. "This one is clearly negroid, so not Dutch". He's trying to be clever and "trigger the sjws" but at the same time his actual statement is just so ignorant and dumb it gives me a headache.


I already said in the op that you don't have enough info at first so a guess would be fine. If you however do have reasons to conclude it based on looks or whatever you can gather from a pic, that's also fine and i'd like to have it out in the open begore we proceed. Its not some trick to label someone as something. It's more a matter of transparancy, although that might not be the right word.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Post by yemshi »

Just let umeu do his experiment and complain afterwards, okay?
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United States of America Amsel_
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Amsel_ »

gibson wrote:
umeu wrote:@gibson i already mentioned it's a guess. And it's supposed to be a guess. But just because it's a guess doesn't mean there are no criteria or arguments applied. You don't have to be certain, It's not a quiz... There's no right or wrong answer.

The idea was to introduce more but still only partial information, based on different criteria to see how this affects people's judgment. Finally, again, with all information put together, and see if this makes a difference. We can then look at why it does or doesn't. But still in any of the rounds there isn't really a good or bad answer.
I just think this whole this is dumb because you're doing it to try to prove a point, but the people on this forum who either didn't pass biology in highschool or are just racist aren't gonna learn anything from this elaborate scenario, just look at amsel's post. "This one is clearly negroid, so not Dutch". He's trying to be clever and "trigger the sjws" but at the same time his actual statement is just so ignorant and dumb it gives me a headache.

Negroid is the proper term for that particular racial type. I'm aware that the word contains some negative connotations, but if you look at the context it should hopefully be clear that it wasn't being used in a hateful way. Furthermore, I feel like I've been respectful to other users, and have taken the effort to convey my thoughts in the least offensive way possible. Don't you think my writing style would be different if I were just trying to get a reaction out of people?

I think it's perfectly normal to bring up racial phenotypes when trying to guess a person's nationality. It's also pretty obvious that Umeu implied some sort of racial element to his question. If you are uncomfortable with the topic of race then that is fine. If you dislike me for whatever reason then that is fine too. I won't lose sleep over any of those things. But there is no need to derail the thread and lie about me.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

I didn't imply it, or at least I didn't meant to, but I am aware it will likely be part of the discussion in some ways, and indeed in this context it doesn't have to be hateful. And I assumed Amsel_ didn't mean it in a negative way.

Like I said, I mean to have a frank discussion, which means every opinion should be allowed to be put forward.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by gibson »

No race and phenotype have nothing to do with nationality. I'm not uncomfortable, I'm just unamused by your failed attempt to be edgy and annoyed at your lack of understanding as to what makes up a person's nationality.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user0 »

have you forgotten how to use words?
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Gendarme »

1
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Rikikipu »

Let'sh play !

1: Yes
2: Yes
3: Yes
4: Yes
5: No
6: Yes
7: Yes
8: No
9: No
10: No
11: Yes
12: Yes
13: Yes
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Rikikipu »

I guess I'm wrong !
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Post by Papist »

The fundamental issue with discussing nationality is that there are two different social definitions of it -- a cultural one and a racial one. In the past, they were basically one in the same because there was very little exchange between groups. However, with globalization there is a ton of exchange, and we are forced to ask ourselves which definition is the correct one.

I subscribe to the cultural definition of nationality, because having the same skin color doesn't mean you have a common identity. A second generation black man born in the Netherlands is going to have a lot more in common with white Dutchies than a white son of Dutch parents born and raised in the United States is.

Adding further credence to this argument is the fact that "ethnically homogenous" populations are a myth. There is no such thing as being "pure" [insert race/nationality here]. If you do genetic tests, you will find you are a little bit of everything. I for example have skin as white as milk, which might lead you to believe I am "pure" Caucasian. In reality, I also have Cherokee, Sioux, African, and Asian DNA. I am not even majority Caucasian; it's clearly not my racial breakdown that is determining my nationality. It is the society I was brought up in, the things I was taught, and the values and attitudes I internalized that made me who I am today. If I was raised in China, all other things being kept constant, I would be a completely different person.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Radix_Lecti »

I think Amsel is struggling to keep his inner legend in control.

@deleted_user I meant young as in the kingdom is still too young to have established firm genetic roots. Many typical Dutch faces could appear to be either Scandinavian or French.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user »

Yes x13
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by edeholland »

3,11,12,13: yes
Great Britain InsectPoison
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by InsectPoison »

1. Yes
2. No
3. Yes
4. Yes
5. No
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. No
9. Yes
10 . No
11. Yes
12. Yes
13. No
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Image
Image
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by Gendarme »

Mate, it's just a bunch of people trying to shoot a ball into a goal. They just happen to be watched by the whole world because we all love football for some reason. Regardless, it's just a fucking game.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by deleted_user »

hook line and sinker -- caught!

:(
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

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Post by gibson »

What it boils down to is very simple. If you are a citizen of France, you are French. If you are a citizen of the Netherlands, you are Dutch. We aren't talking ethnically, but nationality. You can be black and be French. You can be white and be French. There have been black families who have been living in France for hundreds of years. There have been black families living in France for a generation or two. Same with white people. And yet they're all French. None of them any more so or any less so than the others. The straight fucking ignorance on display in regards to this issue is insane.
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by supahons »

Who is Dutch? round 1: fail - If you judge a person based on their appearence, then you already fail, you don't know anything about their background.
If you are a Dutch citizen then you're Dutch. (-->citizenship, just look at your passport). With the emgergence of the nation states and gobalization, the Identity (What is Dutch?) has changed too across time. (in every country)
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Re: Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

Post by vardar »

Yea man I know a guy who has lived in Indonesia for many years and has his Indonesian citizenship. Is he Indonesian even tho he's white? Of course man if that's on his passport then yea
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