Who is Dutch? About nationality and heritage

[gibson]

Yes he's nationally an Indonesian. Obviously ethnically he's not but that's not what this thread is about.

[deleted_user0]

What it boils down to is very simple. If you are a citizen of France, you are French. If you are a citizen of the Netherlands, you are Dutch. We aren't talking ethnically, but nationality. You can be black and be French. You can be white and be French. There have been black families who have been living in France for hundreds of years. There have been black families living in France for a generation or two. Same with white people. And yet they're all French. None of them any more so or any less so than the others. The straight fucking ignorance on display in regards to this issue is insane.

You are missing the point. Surely, it's legitimate to say, you are X nationality when you have X passport, and I agree with that, though not everyone might. But this still leaves the discussion, what are the criteria for citizenship. And there's an increasing global voice calling for these criteria to take race, culture etc into account. I personally think it is misguided, but for the intent of the thread I wish every opinion to have a part in the discussion.
And you might think it's not a discussion worth having, but I think it is, because there are countries about to put laws into practice that punish people from different ethnicities harder.

Anyway, I'll reveal the extra info in a little while.

[deleted_user0]

I think Amsel is struggling to keep his inner legend in control.

@deleted_user I meant young as in the kingdom is still too young to have established firm genetic roots. Many typical Dutch faces could appear to be either Scandinavian or French.

Hmm maybe, the kingdom is young, but the region isn't. Before that there was the republic and the duchy as well. But yeah, obviously there has been a lot of migration before, and indeed it would be impossible to tell by looks.

[deleted_user0]

Round 2:

Please answer the question "Who is Dutch" again, based on the information provided below. Take the background information into account, and please use the format.
The numbers of round 2 do not correspond to the numbers next to the pictures in round 1 (aka #1 in round 1 and #1 in round 2 aren't necessarily the same person), and the numbers between the different categories don't correspond either (aka #1 in category X in round 2 isn't necessarily the same person as #1 in category Y in round 2)


Category 1: Time lived in country & language proficiency (numbers don't correspond with the pictures)
[spoiler=spoiler]1: This person has lived in the Netherlands for the past 15 years or so. Speaks Dutch fluently.
2: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life, apart from a spell of 10 years living abroad as an adult. Speaks Dutch fluently.
3: This person hasn't lived in the Netherlands. Doesn't speak dutch.
4: This person has lived in the Netherlands for the first 10 years of their life. Used to speak Dutch fluently. Now only remembers a few words.
5: This person lived somewhere else for the first 10 years of their life. Has lived in the Netherlands ever since. Speaks Dutch fluently.
6: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life. Speaks Dutch fluently.
7: This person has lived somewhere else for the first 5 years of their life. Has lived in the Netherlands ever since, apart from living abroad for 10 years as an adult. Speaks Dutch fluently.
8: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life. Speaks Dutch fluently.
9: This person has never lived in the Netherlands. Doesn't speak Dutch.
10: This person has never lived in the Netherlands. Doesn't speak Dutch.
11: This person has lived in the Netherlands their entire life. Speaks Dutch fluently.
12: This person lived in the Netherlands their entire life before moving abroad recently. Speaks Dutch fluently.
13: This person lived somewhere else for the first 10 years of their life. Has lived in the Netherlands ever since. Speaks Dutch fluently.[/spoiler]


Category 2: Place of birth & passport (numbers don't correspond with the pictures)
[spoiler=spoiler]1: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
2: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
3: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
4: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Doesn't have a Dutch passport.
5: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Doesn't have a Dutch passport.
6: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
7: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
8: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Doesn't have a Dutch passport.
9: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.
10: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
11: This person wasn't born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
12: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport and a foreign passport.
13: This person was born in the Netherlands. Has a Dutch passport.[/spoiler]

Category 3: Parents & grandparents (numbers correspond with the pictures)
[spoiler=spoiler]1: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
2: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
3: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
4: This person has 2 Dutch grandparents and 2 Canadian grandparents. This person has 1 Dutch parent and 1 Canadian parent.
5: This person has 1 Dutch, 1 Canadian and 2 Philippine grandparents. This person has a Dutch or Canadian parent and 1 Philippine parent.
6: This person has 4 Dutch grandparents and 2 Dutch parents.
7: This person has 2 Dutch grandparents and 2 Australian Grandparents. This person has 1 Dutch parent and 1 Australian parent.
8: This person has 4 grandparents from Guinea-Bissau and 2 parents from Guinea-Bissau.
9: This person has 2 Dutch grandparents and 2 grandparents from Guinea-Bissau. This person has 1 Dutch parent and 1 parent from Guinea-Bissau.
10: This person has 4 grandparents from Guinea-Bissau and 2 parents from Guinea-Bissau.
11: This person has 3 German grandparents, and one Dutch grandparent. This person has 1 German parent and 1 German or Dutch parent.
12:This person has 2 Argentinian grandparents, 1 German grandparent and 1 German or Dutch grandparent. This person has 1 Argentinian and 1 German or Dutch parent.
13: This person has 4 Argentinian grandparents and 2 Argentinian parents. (Hard to find info, might be incorrect. 1 side of the family might be from another S. American country)[/spoiler]


You can copy the answer format below. Yes / No should suffice. Please put the category above your answers.

Category [insert number]
1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:
9:
10:
11:
12:
13:


Some extra remarks:

There's no need to have the same amount of "yes" and "no" in each category. Judgment may vary.

[supahons]

I think the answers of the first round question just reflect the stereotype-filter of each participant. If you ask Who is Chinese?, Who is South-African? with the same pictures, the results will vary drastically. The people in the pictures don't wear any traditional clothing, which might be an indicator for their cultural heritage. I think you can decide by coin toss or look up the royal family.

[deleted_user0]

I think the answers of the first round question just reflect the stereotype-filter of each participant. If you ask Who is Chinese?, Who is South-African? with the same pictures, the results will vary drastically. The people in the pictures don't wear any traditional clothing, which might be an indicator for their cultural heritage. I think you can decide by coin toss or look up the royal family.

I am aware of this, and that's fine. Whether decided by looking at clothes (jerom), by matter of universal elimination (fightinfrenchman) or acceptance (callen), racial phenotype (amsel) or just randomly, they're all legit answers.

[yemshi]

Category 1/2/3
1: Yes / Yes / Yes
2: Yes / Yes / Yes
3: No / Yes / Yes
4: Yes / No / Yes
5: Yes / No / Yes
6: Yes /Yes / Yes
7: Yes / Yes / Yes
8: Yes / No / No
9: No / Yes / Yes
10: No / Yes / No
11: Yes / Yes / Yes
12: Yes / Yes / Yes
13: Yes / Yes / No

[momuuu]

What it boils down to is very simple. If you are a citizen of France, you are French. If you are a citizen of the Netherlands, you are Dutch. We aren't talking ethnically, but nationality. You can be black and be French. You can be white and be French. There have been black families who have been living in France for hundreds of years. There have been black families living in France for a generation or two. Same with white people. And yet they're all French. None of them any more so or any less so than the others. The straight fucking ignorance on display in regards to this issue is insane.

You are missing the point. Surely, it's legitimate to say, you are X nationality when you have X passport, and I agree with that, though not everyone might. But this still leaves the discussion, what are the criteria for citizenship. And there's an increasing global voice calling for these criteria to take race, culture etc into account. I personally think it is misguided, but for the intent of the thread I wish every opinion to have a part in the discussion.
And you might think it's not a discussion worth having, but I think it is, because there are countries about to put laws into practice that punish people from different ethnicities harder.

Anyway, I'll reveal the extra info in a little while.

I think the pictures you provided don't match your idea. The problem is that there is no actual Dutch race, and thus for none of these pictures one can actually do anything more than simply guessing. And then yes, maybe with other details there could be a discussion. For example is someone that migrated to the Netherlands at age 1 and had Dutch foster parents Dutch?

[deleted_user0]

What it boils down to is very simple. If you are a citizen of France, you are French. If you are a citizen of the Netherlands, you are Dutch. We aren't talking ethnically, but nationality. You can be black and be French. You can be white and be French. There have been black families who have been living in France for hundreds of years. There have been black families living in France for a generation or two. Same with white people. And yet they're all French. None of them any more so or any less so than the others. The straight fucking ignorance on display in regards to this issue is insane.

You are missing the point. Surely, it's legitimate to say, you are X nationality when you have X passport, and I agree with that, though not everyone might. But this still leaves the discussion, what are the criteria for citizenship. And there's an increasing global voice calling for these criteria to take race, culture etc into account. I personally think it is misguided, but for the intent of the thread I wish every opinion to have a part in the discussion.
And you might think it's not a discussion worth having, but I think it is, because there are countries about to put laws into practice that punish people from different ethnicities harder.

Anyway, I'll reveal the extra info in a little while.

I think the pictures you provided don't match your idea. The problem is that there is no actual Dutch race, and thus for none of these pictures one can actually do anything more than simply guessing. And then yes, maybe with other details there could be a discussion. For example is someone that migrated to the Netherlands at age 1 and had Dutch foster parents Dutch?

It's not my idea. I'm aware there is no Dutch race. There's no black or negroid race either. People from all over africa have different ancestry and looks. I made it clear from the start that it's fine if people simply guessed for the first part with the pictures. But in case people want to apply different reasoning, then that's fine too. It's not my reasoning, but I won't shut it out. I'm not sure what more I can say :/

As for your last question, that's indeed an interesting one, and I think we should arrive at that question at some point.

[supahons]

ok, let's see where this leads to

[spoiler=Category -1-]1: Y
2: Y
3: N
4: Y
5: Y
6: Y
7: Y
8: Y
9: N
10: N
11: Y
12: Y
13: Y[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Category -2-]1: Y
2: Y
3: Y
4: N
5: N
6: Y
7: Y
8: N
9: Y
10: Y
11: Y
12: Y
13: Y[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Category -3-]1: Y
2: Y
3: Y
4: Y
5: Y
6: Y
7: Y
8: N
9: Y
10: N
11: Y
12: Y
13: N[/spoiler]

[deleted_user0]

Thanks, very organized! :)

[Papist]

lol. I am not sure if this is a racist thread trying to assert who truly deserves dutch status even though there are many people of non white race in ND, or if it is some kind of radical leftist bullshit showing everyone how inclusive ND is by having people of all different races as dutch. Or perhaps it is merely mental masturbation. In any event this brings me back to the world cup final the other day, where the United States of Africa were able to beat croatia and many small countries who supplied immigrant players around the black (not literally) continent partied for the victory their beloved star players who defected to france. Meanwhile all the french simply critiqued their football with disgust and self loathing, feeling their country did not deserve to win for more reasons than one.

You know I did see one frenchmen on the pitch there other day, Giroux, not that he did anything but represent france all by himself in the world cup. He was ironically the worst on the lineup. Not that I am against countries taking in successful immigrants, it just seems some kind of ghoulish charade of former colonial splendor that france has it as policy to promote their imperial past so shamelessly. And something just feels disingenuous about France playing in the world cup with an entire line up of black people most of whom were probably not even born there.

to go further into this issue I believe that my own country, the USA can go to hell as far as immigration is concerned, take them all in because we really dont have anything to lose, but Europe does. I always feel for europe when I read about muslim "refugees" proudly going on raping sprees in the scandinavian countries and bragging about it, and when I hear of similar things elsewhere. There is a reason why Europe is where it is today, and that is hard work innovation, values and refinement. And many of the immigrants especially refugees I fear stand in direct opposition to all of that. But most europeans dont even realize that is why they are where they are or that they could lose that place. Like I said ameirca has little to lose but natural beauty, but Europe really does have so much, so I do see excessive immigration a problem and i hope that if Europe allows more people from the middle east and africa in they do so on a meritocratic basis.

Wow. Your xenophobia is matched only by your ignorance. Every black player on the French team was born in France, so I’m not sure if you were oblivious to this, or are just insinuating that anyone with dark skin isn’t a real Frenchman. Either way, African countries did not “supply” - they aren’t a trade good to be exchanged.

As for the immigrant stuff, I enjoy that right wingers like you single out a handful of people committing crimes and insist that they are somehow representative of their entire population, when in reality crime rates are far lower among immigrants and refugees. Maybe you should actually ask some of the Europeans here about how things actually are instead of believing something you read on a far right fake news website.

I see you spouted some BS about the United States as well. If this is such a terrible place because of immigration, why are you here? What negative impacts have immigrants had on your life?

[deleted_user]

Jgals is just a visionary. RE Iro isn't very good.

[jgals]

Jgals is just a visionary. RE Iro isn't very good.

Only good in the hands of a master

[jgals]

lol. I am not sure if this is a racist thread trying to assert who truly deserves dutch status even though there are many people of non white race in ND, or if it is some kind of radical leftist bullshit showing everyone how inclusive ND is by having people of all different races as dutch. Or perhaps it is merely mental masturbation. In any event this brings me back to the world cup final the other day, where the United States of Africa were able to beat croatia and many small countries who supplied immigrant players around the black (not literally) continent partied for the victory their beloved star players who defected to france. Meanwhile all the french simply critiqued their football with disgust and self loathing, feeling their country did not deserve to win for more reasons than one.

You know I did see one frenchmen on the pitch there other day, Giroux, not that he did anything but represent france all by himself in the world cup. He was ironically the worst on the lineup. Not that I am against countries taking in successful immigrants, it just seems some kind of ghoulish charade of former colonial splendor that france has it as policy to promote their imperial past so shamelessly. And something just feels disingenuous about France playing in the world cup with an entire line up of black people most of whom were probably not even born there.

to go further into this issue I believe that my own country, the USA can go to hell as far as immigration is concerned, take them all in because we really dont have anything to lose, but Europe does. I always feel for europe when I read about muslim "refugees" proudly going on raping sprees in the scandinavian countries and bragging about it, and when I hear of similar things elsewhere. There is a reason why Europe is where it is today, and that is hard work innovation, values and refinement. And many of the immigrants especially refugees I fear stand in direct opposition to all of that. But most europeans dont even realize that is why they are where they are or that they could lose that place. Like I said ameirca has little to lose but natural beauty, but Europe really does have so much, so I do see excessive immigration a problem and i hope that if Europe allows more people from the middle east and africa in they do so on a meritocratic basis.

Wow. Your xenophobia is matched only by your ignorance. Every black player on the French team was born in France, so I’m not sure if you were oblivious to this, or are just insinuating that anyone with dark skin isn’t a real Frenchman. Either way, African countries did not “supply” - they aren’t a trade good to be exchanged.

As for the immigrant stuff, I enjoy that right wingers like you single out a handful of people committing crimes and insist that they are somehow representative of their entire population, when in reality crime rates are far lower among immigrants and refugees. Maybe you should actually ask some of the Europeans here about how things actually are instead of believing something you read on a far right fake news website.

I see you spouted some BS about the United States as well. If this is such a terrible place because of immigration, why are you here? What negative impacts have immigrants had on your life?

Too many leftist tears for me to wade through and respond to this. America is a terrible place for a lot of reasons ironically immigrants are the one thing helping things out here in the USA. Simply because anyone who comes in from a broad is bound to have more of a soul than your average American. You obviously misread what I wrote in that regard which is typical of the left in their unwillingness to engage in an intelligent fashion favoring personal attacks instead( another reasons they never get anywhere) .... but I don’t need to ask a European for their opinion because most of them are either brainwashed apathetic or afraid to express their true feelings and be banished as a bigot sexist homophobe. Also I have been to Europe and stayed there as an exchange student so I don’t really need to ask one for their opinion as I’ve seen it firsthand

[Papist]

Too many leftist tears for me to wade through and respond to this. America is a terrible place for a lot of reasons ironically immigrants are the one thing helping things out here in the USA. Simply because anyone who comes in from a broad is bound to have more of a soul than your average American. You obviously misread what I wrote in that regard which is typical of the left in their unwillingness to engage in an intelligent fashion favoring personal attacks instead( another reasons they never get anywhere) .... but I don’t need to ask a European for their opinion because most of them are either brainwashed apathetic or afraid to express their true feelings and be banished as a bigot sexist homophobe. Also I have been to Europe and stayed there as an exchange student so I don’t really need to ask one for their opinion as I’ve seen it firsthand

How ironic. You criticize people on "the left" for not wanting to have intelligent discussions, then ignore my response to the offensive and empirically false claims you made and start making personal attacks. Anyway, onto your other "points".

You have an opinion about Europe, and if anyone disagrees with your unfounded claims, then it's because of political correctness (not because you're wrong, of course). As if a year at a European university and reading a couple articles on Fox News makes you more qualified to talk about European immigration policies than actual Europeans. Mind telling us what you "saw", and (assuming it was something negative involving an immigrant), why you generalized it to all immigrants?

And since you clearly hate the United States, can I ask you when you're leaving?

[jgals]

By the way if black African French are a minority in the population but a majority on the starting lineup if that’s not racism on the part of France to assume that they should chose their starters just because they are black.... if that’s not racism then I don’t know what is

[deleted_user]

"Right-or-ironic" isn't a leftist phenomen, it's generational? and bipartisan.

[deleted_user]

By the way if black African French are a minority in the population but a majority on the starting lineup if that’s not racism on the part of France to assume that they should chose their starters just because they are black.... if that’s not racism then I don’t know what is

Hard to take this seriously, chap.

Equal opportunity does not necessitate equal representation. That's the de facto guideline of egalitarian principles.

[jgals]

Too many leftist tears for me to wade through and respond to this. America is a terrible place for a lot of reasons ironically immigrants are the one thing helping things out here in the USA. Simply because anyone who comes in from a broad is bound to have more of a soul than your average American. You obviously misread what I wrote in that regard which is typical of the left in their unwillingness to engage in an intelligent fashion favoring personal attacks instead( another reasons they never get anywhere) .... but I don’t need to ask a European for their opinion because most of them are either brainwashed apathetic or afraid to express their true feelings and be banished as a bigot sexist homophobe. Also I have been to Europe and stayed there as an exchange student so I don’t really need to ask one for their opinion as I’ve seen it firsthand

How ironic. You criticize people on "the left" for not wanting to have intelligent discussions, then ignore my response to the offensive and empirically false claims you made and start making personal attacks. Anyway, onto your other "points".

You have an opinion about Europe, and if anyone disagrees with your unfounded claims, then it's because of political correctness (not because you're wrong, of course). As if a year at a European university and reading a couple articles on Fox News makes you more qualified to talk about European immigration policies than actual Europeans. Mind telling us what you "saw", and (assuming it was something negative involving an immigrant), why you generalized it to all immigrants?

And since you clearly hate the United States, can I ask you when you're leaving?

My opinions are my own to keep and express so fuck you, and I’ll stay as long as I want to, so fuck you. But I really don’t think you know my opinions or anything about me and to jump to judge mental conclusions based on an irrelevant posting on an irrelevenat website showsyour idiocy

[deleted_user]

Too many leftist tears for me to wade through and respond to this. America is a terrible place for a lot of reasons ironically immigrants are the one thing helping things out here in the USA. Simply because anyone who comes in from a broad is bound to have more of a soul than your average American. You obviously misread what I wrote in that regard which is typical of the left in their unwillingness to engage in an intelligent fashion favoring personal attacks instead( another reasons they never get anywhere) .... but I don’t need to ask a European for their opinion because most of them are either brainwashed apathetic or afraid to express their true feelings and be banished as a bigot sexist homophobe. Also I have been to Europe and stayed there as an exchange student so I don’t really need to ask one for their opinion as I’ve seen it firsthand

How ironic. You criticize people on "the left" for not wanting to have intelligent discussions, then ignore my response to the offensive and empirically false claims you made and start making personal attacks. Anyway, onto your other "points".

You have an opinion about Europe, and if anyone disagrees with your unfounded claims, then it's because of political correctness (not because you're wrong, of course). As if a year at a European university and reading a couple articles on Fox News makes you more qualified to talk about European immigration policies than actual Europeans. Mind telling us what you "saw", and (assuming it was something negative involving an immigrant), why you generalized it to all immigrants?

And since you clearly hate the United States, can I ask you when you're leaving?

My opinions are my own to keep and express so fuck you, and I’ll stay as long as I want to, so fuck you. But I really don’t think you know my opinions or anything about me and to jump to judge mental conclusions based on an irrelevant posting on an irrelevenat website showsyour idiocy

you wrote this:

You obviously misread what I wrote in that regard which is typical of the left in their unwillingness to engage in an intelligent fashion favoring personal attacks instead( another reasons they never get anywhere)

5 minutes ago

[jgals]

I don’t get your point . Bottom line is I’m not really trying to have a political discussion, I was just poking fun originally at how badly the French suck at football, and yes maybe all the Africans were born in France and I’m not against them being French citizens , but to be French is actually a cultural as well as ethnic distinction in my mind above being a legal distinction. But that just my opinion and unlike you I am not trying to twist anyone’s arms to come in line with my views. I’m not going to separate children from parents who won’t educate them that little boys can have vaginas and little girls can have penises, but you can knock yourself out trying to get that done. I guess maybe thatia the difference between me and your average leftist which you appear to be

[jgals]

By the way if black African French are a minority in the population but a majority on the starting lineup if that’s not racism on the part of France to assume that they should chose their starters just because they are black.... if that’s not racism then I don’t know what is

Hard to take this seriously, chap.

Equal opportunity does not necessitate equal representation. That's the de facto guideline of egalitarian principles.

yeah it’s not serious. And I agree with what you said , but in America many advocates of social justice would prefer if it did necessitate equal representation, that is why social justice is so wrong

[deleted_user]

Misconstrued definitions. I think you'll find the two words "social justice" by themselves, outside modern context, to be an agreeable concept. You know but what's "just" has a lot of debate around it.

I don't even know what's meant by it anymore, the term and how it's used and what it even represents, and didn't four years ago either. It gets thrown around carelessly and lots of false equivalencies are made between individual political outliers and entire political factions. I just don't get it.

Lots of people are for more equal opportunities and like just more awareness about how our actions affect other people, and giving a damn about that sort of thing. That hasn't always been a priority -- just look at the reactions. Also note that as equal opportunity does not necessitate equal representation, it does not imply that unequal representation cannot be from unequal opportunity, as it is the case in many areas today. To what extent and why and how and all those are the more relevant questions, but come on a spectrum, and there are rational positions held all over it, and that should be political discussion, not a vocal abhorrence of extreme outliers.

[vardar]

shabba