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United States of America Mvp618
Skirmisher
Posts: 133
ESO: Mvp618

26 Jul 2018, 22:16

Papist wrote:This is a strawman argument, and reminds me of men saying they're afraid of getting accused of sexual harassment if they talk to women because of the #MeToo movement. It's really a ridiculous argument - why would you get called a predator or "have the race card pulled on you" unless you're being pervy or offensive? In reality it's usually a cover for people who are upset that a certain inappropriate behavior is no longer acceptable or are uncomfortable with the idea of expanded rights for vulnerable groups in general because it represents a challenge to the status quo.

I don't think the issue of men saying they wont talk to women because of #metoo movement is analogous here. But, that aside, if you are trying to tell me that you do not think people are willing to use their race to their advantage in today's social climate I would say that you are quite simply naive.

Papist wrote:Well, white culture definitely exists - it's what you think of as mainstream culture. It is particularly prevalent in business, education, and politics, which are typically the places where people get accused of "acting white". People of other culturally backgrounds conform to the dominant culture (e.g. speaking "proper" English, wearing a European business suit, black people straightening their hair, etc.) in these fields because that's how you succeed in them.

Point being is this "mainstream white culture" you speak of is nothing more than a series of generalizations that play a similar role in perpetuating racism. Plenty of people of all races prefer to speak proper English and dress nicely aside from the benefits it may provide in furthering one's career. People should be able to dress and speak how they choose without being accused of acting white or black.
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8594
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

26 Jul 2018, 22:35

vardar wrote:ahh another brain-cell depleting day on esoc
TFW vardar... well, anything!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"In general you shouldnt say gg before clicking resign IMO"

"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
United States of America godzillaking
Skirmisher
Donator 03
Posts: 133

26 Jul 2018, 22:40

No thanks. I'd rather have fun and play AOE.
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United States of America Papist
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 2488
ESO: Papist

26 Jul 2018, 22:49

Mvp618 wrote:I don't think the issue of men saying they wont talk to women because of #metoo movement is analogous here. But, that aside, if you are trying to tell me that you do not think people are willing to use their race to their advantage in today's social climate I would say that you are quite simply naive.

No, I did not say that. You said "I should be able to interact with people of other races without having to worry they might pull the race card on me". That's what I responded to.
Mvp618 wrote:Point being is this "mainstream white culture" you speak of is nothing more than a series of generalizations that play a similar role in perpetuating racism. Plenty of people of all races prefer to speak proper English and dress nicely aside from the benefits it may provide in furthering one's career. People should be able to dress and speak how they choose without being accused of acting white or black.

I agree, people should be able to do what they want, and many people do want to speak the white dialect of American English and wear Western clothes. And it's a good thing they do, because you won't get far in most professions if you don't.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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United States of America Amsel_
Dragoon
Posts: 479
ESO: The_Amsel

26 Jul 2018, 22:53

Can someone explain this obsession society as a whole has with racism? In terms of scenarios where it outright harms someone, it is virtually non-existent - relative to nearly every other cause of harm or death. What is it about racism that is so much more important than going to space or preserving the nature? It's especially odd to see a mostly leftist/liberal video game forum lose its mind over it. I understand completely why the mods would want to remove offensive posts, but the user base's hysteria to the topic is puzzling.
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Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
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ESO: Gendarme

26 Jul 2018, 23:05

It is presented as a bigger problem than it ever has in the West, while at the same time being at historical all-time lows. There's no rationale, merely trend-setting by the MSM and politicians as with anything else throughout human history. You'll find that you don't see much rationale in general when people have inherited opinions whether it involves politics or not. It's wrong because it is.

If this forum was mainly populated by East Europeans and Asians, these threads would not exist.
Capitalization matters.https://pastebin.com/KEuaQCrR
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8851
Location: USA

26 Jul 2018, 23:23

Amsel_ wrote:Can someone explain this obsession society as a whole has with racism? In terms of scenarios where it outright harms someone, it is virtually non-existent - relative to nearly every other cause of harm or death. What is it about racism that is so much more important than going to space or preserving the nature? It's especially odd to see a mostly leftist/liberal video game forum lose its mind over it. I understand completely why the mods would want to remove offensive posts, but the user base's hysteria to the topic is puzzling.
yea good idea since it doesn't effect me as a white male and since it barely ever causes death lets just ignore it!
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 7906
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

27 Jul 2018, 00:22

Racism is easy to prevent, prevalent, and its abolishment is important to all peoples in terms of creating a healthy and equal opportunity society. It is absolutely a matter of interest both in the general sense of being a considerate fellow human and in the sense that it is still a matter of life and death. When prejudice against minorities is overcome true discussion can occur in terms of socioeconomic struggles and solutions and with it, true, tangible progress.

To focus only on the "greatest evil" or that we can only pursue certain moral quests if deemed significant enough on a world scale is an absurd premise as we hold the capacity to make simultaneous moral leaps and bounds, absurd in that the quest for moral improvement should never be condemned, and absurd in that that quest is literally a matter of just talking. We're not manufacturing resource-taxing "diet racism" pills, just talking. In the discussion of racism is the discussion of the simple egalitarian principle -- that all men and women are born with equal rights -- and we acknowledge that this is not a reality yet. In outing racist remarks we make a little progress. In moral discussion is the revelation of many simultaneous moral truths.

It is precisely more important to discuss each time it is said it isn't.

In each man and in each women is yourself. YOU, a thinking, feeling human searching for what is good in life. To dismiss the topic or issue or racism is to turn your back on yourself, to say, "I do not care I am treated unfairly. I do not care I could die based on my skin tone. I do not care the solution is here in front of me."
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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French Southern Territories vardar
Dragoon
Posts: 420
ESO: VardarB98/DemonDeacs
Location: Tundra

27 Jul 2018, 00:31

zoom wrote:
vardar wrote:ahh another brain-cell depleting day on esoc
TFW vardar... well, anything!


ahh ur a hoeee
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United States of America Amsel_
Dragoon
Posts: 479
ESO: The_Amsel

27 Jul 2018, 01:02

SirCallen wrote:Racism is easy to prevent, prevalent, and its abolishment is important to all peoples in terms of creating a healthy and equal opportunity society. It is absolutely a matter of interest both in the general sense of being a considerate fellow human and in the sense that it is still a matter of life and death, yes. When prejudice against minorities is overcome true discussion can occur in terms of socioeconomic struggles and solutions and with it, true, tangible progress.

To focus only on the "greatest evil" or that we can only pursue certain moral quests if deemed significant enough on a world scale is an absurd premise as we hold the capacity to make simultaneous moral leaps and bounds, absurd in that the quest for moral improvement should never be condemned, and absurd in that that quest is literally a matter of just talking. We're not manufacturing resource-taxing "diet racism" pills here, just talking. In the discussion of racism is the discussion of the simple egalitarian principle -- that all men and women are born with equal rights -- and we acknowledge that this is not a reality yet. In moral discussion is the revelation of many simultaneous moral truths.

It is precisely more important to discuss each time it is said it isn't.

In each man and in each women is yourself. YOU, a thinking, feeling human searching for what is good in life. To dismiss the topic or issue or racism is to turn your back on yourself, to say, "I do not care I am treated unfairly. I do not care I could die based on my skin tone."

I think you're exaggerating a bit. Racism is almost universally hated in the West. You'll lose friends, have family disown you, get fired, and maybe even get assaulted or killed if you go around saying racist things. If your goal is to stop racism then I think everything is already in place to prevent it from ever being more than a fringe minority.

What I'm concerned about is the effect of this hysteric hatred of racism, real or imaginary. People are already under a lot of stress because of the need to conform to certain social-standards in civil society. The fear of having a giant lynch mob come try to ruin your life if you so much as misspeak is certainly not healthy. I don't like having to tip-toe around in some discussions out of fear of getting black-listed from jobs, and I've freed myself from most if not all social standards and pressures. I can't imagine how a teenage girl or some other heavily socially dependent person would react to having one of these mobs sent their way.

This intense anti-racism may inadvertently make racism worse as well. The reason being that it forces people to suppress any natural racism that may occur in one's mind. (Natural racism can include the 'chocolate' or 'monkey' remarks children often naively make, pattern recognition, or even socially trained racism.) I think that just suppressing and attacking racism is ineffective because it doesn't actually deal with the issues; it just bullies people into silence. So this is going to open up opportunities for people to sublimate their subconscious racism in other areas. Someone might hate immigration and refugees because that allows them to express their dislike for these groups while being able to say they're not racist.

The current liberal stratagem doesn't work. In fact it makes it harder to actually solve the underlying problems which cause racism in the first place. I think that instead of witch hunts it would be more effective to allow people to express themselves freely. I think we should free people from social pressures instead of creating even more.
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 7906
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

27 Jul 2018, 01:03

Which of us is exaggerating, again?
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 7209

27 Jul 2018, 01:07

I would post the drill tweet here but I already did that
There's sand in my teeth
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8851
Location: USA

27 Jul 2018, 01:11

amsel is diarouga 2.0
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Canada forgrin
Howdah
Posts: 1623
ESO: Forgrin

27 Jul 2018, 01:28

I live in an area with nearly 0 black people but pretty much every other significant Asian/Middle Eastern minority is represented here. It seems like the discussion about racism here is so different; it's mostly about how old Chinese ladies are incredibly racist to literally everyone, especially people they cut off in traffic. We have BLM here but they're pretty much a joke with no influence; they got laughed out of their attempt to remove police from the pride parade.

Basically what I'm saying is that some people, like myself, have very little experience with black people and can't really understand their struggle. Maybe I should watch Atlanta or something similar, but it feels like it has so little relevance on my life that I'd rather just rewatch Westworld. This is probably how many people outside of the US feel as well; there seems to be some really specific conditions in the US that make racism a more central part of society.
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Sweden Gendarme
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Posts: 5120
ESO: Gendarme

27 Jul 2018, 01:36

Black privilege and all that jazz is a thing even where these problems do not exist (e.g. Sweden). You're possibly just lucky to not have any of this around where you live.
Capitalization matters.https://pastebin.com/KEuaQCrR
No Flag Mordor
Crossbow
Posts: 3

27 Jul 2018, 03:26

Why would people be racist irl? Seems kinda pointless
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9999

27 Jul 2018, 03:28

Amsel_ wrote:I think you're exaggerating a bit. Racism is almost universally hated in the West. You'll lose friends, have family disown you, get fired, and maybe even get assaulted or killed if you go around saying racist things. If your goal is to stop racism then I think everything is already in place to prevent it from ever being more than a fringe minority.

It's funny that you say that, considering we even have politicians openly making racist remarks and implementing racist policy that explicitly target ethnic minorities in an absurd echo of the 1930's. Some people get fired, sure, some might lose friends, although I doubt you have any statistics to back that up. But please show me some examples of people killed for saying racist things? Your post is so grotesquely delusional, it's hard to know where to begin.

What I'm concerned about is the effect of this hysteric hatred of racism, real or imaginary. People are already under a lot of stress because of the need to conform to certain social-standards in civil society.
So it's ok to force immigrants to conform to social-standards of civil society, but not OK to ask the same of people? Which people do you mean?

The fear of having a giant lynch mob come try to ruin your life if you so much as misspeak is certainly not healthy.
It isn't. It's what we call a phobia, or an irrational fear of something.


I don't like having to tip-toe around in some discussions out of fear of getting black-listed from jobs, and I've freed myself from most if not all social standards and pressures.
So basically you want to be able to say anything you want, but you refuse to acknowledge the consequences of your actions? You ARE free to say what you want. Nobody will actually put you in jail. Please show me how many people have been convicted for racism (and I'm not talking about inciting hate and harmful conduct towards people or groups of people). But just because you are free to say what you want, that doesn't mean you are free from criticism from other people, nor that you are free from how other people respond to your actions. And the key word here is action, you choose to act that way, you have control over it, and as such you are legally and morally responsible. Please let me know if you disagree.

I can't imagine how a teenage girl or some other heavily socially dependent person would react to having one of these mobs sent their way.

This is relevant why? You clearly can't imagine many things. I fail to see how this constitutes anything close to an argument.

This intense anti-racism may inadvertently make racism worse as well.

I agree with you on that. It will make some people more extreme in their beliefs, and it will push some who may have had doubts about their beliefs make up their mind. Many ideas and concepts that originate from the American discourse about race may have noble intent but likely achieve the opposite of what they want. Some are just plain misguided, wrong or racist as well. You can criticize that without emptying out the baby with the bath.

The reason being that it forces people to suppress any natural racism that may occur in one's mind.

In society we are forced and trained to suppress natural tendencies all the time, we have a natural tendency to shit and pee wherever we want whenever we have to, for example. Why don't you find this problematic in those cases, but you do find it problematic when it comes to this particular case? Please tell me what the difference is? Not to mention that you have to first clarify what natural racism is (I can see you tried, but failed, in the brackets that followed).

(Natural racism can include the 'chocolate' or 'monkey' remarks children often naively make, pattern recognition, or even socially trained racism.)

I'm not sure about chocolate, but actually children are quite capable of seeing the difference between monkeys and people, and if any child refers to another person as a monkey because of the color of their skin, it's because they have heard this used somewhere else. Considering that language is fundamentally a cultural expression, it's kinda strange to list it as a natural racism. I think this more accurately reflects your own beliefs rather than anything else that has a basis in fact or science. If you can show me any studies on the contrary, please do.

Not sure what you mean by pattern recognition, but I do recognize the pattern that you like to be vague and assert things without any clarification or argument.

Finally you mention socially trained racism... but I thought we were talking about natural racism. Again, you confuse me. What is it exactly that you are trying to say? That we can learn children unwanted behaviour, but we can't unlearn it?


I think that just suppressing and attacking racism is ineffective because it doesn't actually deal with the issues; it just bullies people into silence.

So what do you propose? Because if you don't attack and resist racism, than you are bullied into silence. Why is that ok, but the reverse isn't?

So this is going to open up opportunities for people to sublimate their subconscious racism in other areas. Someone might hate immigration and refugees because that allows them to express their dislike for these groups while being able to say they're not racist.

They can say that. And some do. And they would be/are wrong.


The current liberal stratagem doesn't work.

I was unaware that civil decency was a liberal stratagem. You know the world is bigger than the USA, right?


In fact it makes it harder to actually solve the underlying problems which cause racism in the first place.

In your opinion, what causes racism?

I think that instead of witch hunts it would be more effective to allow people to express themselves freely. I think we should free people from social pressures instead of creating even more.
[/quote]
I agree, but I don't think you quite understand what that means. It seems you want to be able to express certain things, but when other people disagree with that, then they are bullying you and oppressing you. That's kinda strange, isn't it?
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8851
Location: USA

27 Jul 2018, 04:35

I'm a white male and since iv never experienced racism in the place where I live it can't be a big deal!
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 9565
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

27 Jul 2018, 06:05

Racism is as overrated as cav start :chinese:
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9999

27 Jul 2018, 06:10

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Racism is as overrated as cav start :chinese:


why don't you write a guide about it! :uglylol: You like to show the world how much you know, and you clearly know so much, so it would be easy!
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France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
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ESO: diarouga
Location: France

27 Jul 2018, 06:14

umeu wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Racism is as overrated as cav start :chinese:


why don't you write a guide about it! :uglylol: You like to show the world how much you know, and you clearly know so much, so it would be easy!

Yea I should. I think people should also start giving 5% handicap to black people when they play against them, because slavery was so hard for black people, and they deserve it to make it fair!
We should probably also pause the game for 2 min when someone reaches the colonial age to think about slavery and how horrible it was.
Finally I want to thank you because you've opened my eyes. I won't ever build a plantation again in this game, that's so racist.
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9999

27 Jul 2018, 06:46

Yes, because racism and discrimination is only about slavery! Wow, what a brilliant insight. I bet it will be an instant bestseller!
Pretty much like a jgals guide to iroquois, that's how good and relevant it is!
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Great Britain InsectPoison
Lancer
Posts: 751

27 Jul 2018, 06:56

Esoc is such a shitshow. Can’t go a week without another sjw post. Anyway, it’s not as if white people are the only people who discriminate others.... I’ve seen it happen in the Black community as well .
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Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1208
ESO: gamevideo113

27 Jul 2018, 07:00

Gendarme wrote:It is presented as a bigger problem than it ever has in the West, while at the same time being at historical all-time lows. There's no rationale, merely trend-setting by the MSM and politicians as with anything else throughout human history. You'll find that you don't see much rationale in general when people have inherited opinions whether it involves politics or not. It's wrong because it is.

If this forum was mainly populated by East Europeans and Asians, these threads would not exist.

Racism is at an all time low because it is being fought on a massive scale. Unfortunately, whether you can see it or not, racism is still a thing and xenophobia is way harder to eradicate than you would think. Just recently we had a handful of episodes of immigrants getting shot with air guns in Italy, just for the sake of it.
I agree with you, i am kinda tired of hearing the same things over and over again, but i can totally see why they need to be said. Here in italy we are at an all time low for tolerance, it's good to keep your guard up.
On a side note, i find also the "white male" thingy to be very annoying. It is a stupid and hypocritical stereotype.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9999

27 Jul 2018, 07:03

It's a shitshow indeed. Can't go a week without some ignorant spouting the content his racist galbladder all over the place.

And yes, they can be. And that's a problem as well. But not a systematic one, unless you live in South Africa and are poor.

Basicially youre saying, but someone else... If that's your best argument...

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