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Sweden Gendarme
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27 Jul 2018, 15:06

@gamevideo113 the normal differences between the sexes that you are describing is what is deemed as sexist. I present to you page 5 and onward of Queen's infamous thread: viewtopic.php?f=315&t=9183&start=100
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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United States of America Amsel_
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ESO: The_Amsel

27 Jul 2018, 15:08

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:I think you're exaggerating a bit. Racism is almost universally hated in the West. You'll lose friends, have family disown you, get fired, and maybe even get assaulted or killed if you go around saying racist things. If your goal is to stop racism then I think everything is already in place to prevent it from ever being more than a fringe minority.

It's funny that you say that, considering we even have politicians openly making racist remarks and implementing racist policy that explicitly target ethnic minorities in an absurd echo of the 1930's. Some people get fired, sure, some might lose friends, although I doubt you have any statistics to back that up. But please show me some examples of people killed for saying racist things? Your post is so grotesquely delusional, it's hard to know where to begin.

Well I don't think minorities should be exempt from anything that would happen to negatively effect them. I can't cover or defend every issue, since such matters must be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. The most I can say is that racism is democratically and institutionally opposed, so every issue of a politician being racist is probably going to have some sort of cover.

I also don't think that it's necessary to provide statistics to back up the claim that people get fired or lose friends for saying racist things. First of all, statistics would be next to impossible to collect. But also because it is very easy to observe in society.

I went to look up an example I remember, but it's one of those things where google gives you different results from what you search.

umeu wrote:
What I'm concerned about is the effect of this hysteric hatred of racism, real or imaginary. People are already under a lot of stress because of the need to conform to certain social-standards in civil society.
So it's ok to force immigrants to conform to social-standards of civil society, but not OK to ask the same of people? Which people do you mean?

I don't think it's okay to force immigrants to conform to the social-standards of civil society. I view the state as the expression of the national consciousness. If someone is not in tune with that conscious then they have no reason to live within the state's boundaries.

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:The fear of having a giant lynch mob come try to ruin your life if you so much as misspeak is certainly not healthy.
It isn't. It's what we call a phobia, or an irrational fear of something.

This thread alone is proof of how people react to racism. And I see cases in the news all the time where someone says something politically incorrect and they get their life ruined. You're burying your head in the sand.

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:I don't like having to tip-toe around in some discussions out of fear of getting black-listed from jobs, and I've freed myself from most if not all social standards and pressures.
So basically you want to be able to say anything you want, but you refuse to acknowledge the consequences of your actions? You ARE free to say what you want. Nobody will actually put you in jail.

What consequences? Weren't you just asking me for proof that people will get fired and harassed? And my whole argument is revolving around social pressure, not the law. You and I both know that there are non-legal ramifications to saying wrong things.

Please show me how many people have been convicted for racism (and I'm not talking about inciting hate and harmful conduct towards people or groups of people).

This is an example of how the definition of racism will change whenever it's convenient. There are plenty of cases where someone so much as criticizes another group for something they are guilty of, and that person gets arrested for hate-speech. But by adding the qualifiers of 'inciting hate and harmful conduct' you can twist anything negative said into 'inciting hate.'

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:I can't imagine how a teenage girl or some other heavily socially dependent person would react to having one of these mobs sent their way.

This is relevant why? You clearly can't imagine many things. I fail to see how this constitutes anything close to an argument.

You don't understand the social-pressure I'm trying to talk about because you're the one who loves whipping up the crowd into a frenzy.

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:The reason being that it forces people to suppress any natural racism that may occur in one's mind.

In society we are forced and trained to suppress natural tendencies all the time, we have a natural tendency to shit and pee wherever we want whenever we have to, for example. Why don't you find this problematic in those cases, but you do find it problematic when it comes to this particular case? Please tell me what the difference is? Not to mention that you have to first clarify what natural racism is (I can see you tried, but failed, in the brackets that followed).

We don't have a natural tendency to defecate everywhere. Virtually everyone, even animals, leaves waste in appropriate areas. Our natural tendency to create society is not the same as the artificially created witch hunts and circlejerks against people who don't hold up to arbitrary social-standards. It has gotten to the point where society rules us, instead of us ruling society.

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:(Natural racism can include the 'chocolate' or 'monkey' remarks children often naively make, pattern recognition, or even socially trained racism.)

I'm not sure about chocolate, but actually children are quite capable of seeing the difference between monkeys and people, and if any child refers to another person as a monkey because of the color of their skin, it's because they have heard this used somewhere else. Considering that language is fundamentally a cultural expression, it's kinda strange to list it as a natural racism. I think this more accurately reflects your own beliefs rather than anything else that has a basis in fact or science. If you can show me any studies on the contrary, please do.

Not sure what you mean by pattern recognition, but I do recognize the pattern that you like to be vague and assert things without any clarification or argument.

Finally you mention socially trained racism... but I thought we were talking about natural racism. Again, you confuse me. What is it exactly that you are trying to say? That we can learn children unwanted behaviour, but we can't unlearn it?

-Children can tell the difference between colors. The idea that it's impossible for children to identify skin pigment without being trained to do so is absurd and clearly politically motivated.

-By pattern recognition I mean seeing a difference in behavior.

-Trained racism is mostly an echo of the above 'natural racisms.' It does not need to include things taught by their parents. In fact, for the sake of classifying this as a natural racism, it must exclude people who have been lectured by their parents on why black neighbors make their property value go down. If one kid recognizes a difference in phenotype then other children are going to absorb that.

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:I think that just suppressing and attacking racism is ineffective because it doesn't actually deal with the issues; it just bullies people into silence.

So what do you propose? Because if you don't attack and resist racism, than you are bullied into silence. Why is that ok, but the reverse isn't?

You don't need to attack racism. In fact most people who are on the receiving end of discrimination tend to only be defensive and reactionary about it. They only care to the extent that it affects them. The people who obsessively attack racism, real or imaginary, tend to have other reasons. Furthermore, you're forcing an unnecessary polarity between bullying and silencing racism and being bullied and silenced by racists. Most people outside of the West are pretty damn racist. Even then, those people don't get bullied into silence. It's interesting how earlier you were accusing people of having an irrational phobia of the easily observable reaction to saying racist things, which you later acknowledged; yet you are the one who has an irrational fear.

umeu wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:I think that instead of witch hunts it would be more effective to allow people to express themselves freely. I think we should free people from social pressures instead of creating even more.

I agree, but I don't think you quite understand what that means. It seems you want to be able to express certain things, but when other people disagree with that, then they are bullying you and oppressing you. That's kinda strange, isn't it?

Disagreement is not the same as social-pressure. If someone I know says something stupid I might call them stupid, but it usually just ends there. I don't rally the masses to fire someone and get everyone to hate them.
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New Zealand zoom
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27 Jul 2018, 16:42

princeofkabul wrote:basically what gs is saying if you're black you're free to do whatever you fucking want because of the rough history of their ancestors. and just tell anyone who haven't acknowledge it in this chat? everyone knows it exist, however you shouldn't get free pass with it. the one who is ignorant here is you.

instead of your emotions and feelings nobody cares of you could research some statistical information of the differences between blacks, whites and yeallow.
That is exactly what Goodspeed is saying.
No Flag umeu
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27 Jul 2018, 16:45

Amsel_ wrote:Well I don't think minorities should be exempt from anything that would happen to negatively effect them.


please be clear. What is this supposed to mean? How is it a response to anything I said? I said that they were targeted specifically, not that they should be exempt of things that apply to every other citizen just because they are immigrants. Apart from refugees, please show me an example where immigrants get treatment that locals don't get just because they are immigrants.


I can't cover or defend every issue, since such matters must be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. The most I can say is that racism is democratically and institutionally opposed, so every issue of a politician being racist is probably going to have some sort of cover.
It is covered in most laws, yes. But what if the people who enforce those laws are racist, or subconsciously biased? We only need to look at the recent history of the USA to see what happens then. Or you can look at SA.

I also don't think that it's necessary to provide statistics to back up the claim that people get fired or lose friends for saying racist things. First of all, statistics would be next to impossible to collect. But also because it is very easy to observe in society.
Actually it is necessary. If it's so easy to observe, there should be some conformation of it. How many people do you know personally that have been fired for saying racist stuff? Even when people say racist things in public, they are often not fired, but they resign because their position is untenable. The few cases where people were fired were cases where the person was a public figure, and the company tried to protect their public image from a business perspective.

I went to look up an example I remember, but it's one of those things where google gives you different results from what you search.

You mean to say you couldn't find anything...


I don't think it's okay to force immigrants to conform to the social-standards of civil society. I view the state as the expression of the national consciousness. If someone is not in tune with that conscious then they have no reason to live within the state's boundaries.

What does this mean concretely?



This thread alone is proof of how people react to racism. And I see cases in the news all the time where someone says something politically incorrect and they get their life ruined. You're burying your head in the sand.

You mean it proves that people disagree with you? So far I haven't really seen any flaming in this thread, there hasn't been a lynchmob, people haven't gone to anyone's house or threatened anyone with anything. Nobody has sent a screenshot to anyone's employer or tried to ruin anyone's life. And I refer to my initial question, please show me examples of (unfairly) people getting their life ruined for saying racist things.


What consequences? Weren't you just asking me for proof that people will get fired and harassed? And my whole argument is revolving around social pressure, not the law. You and I both know that there are non-legal ramifications to saying wrong things.

Yes, I was asking about that. I'm sure this hardly happens. But that doesn't mean there aren't other consequences. Such as people opposing your views, marching in rallies against you, or calling you a racist. I find it funny you feel like immigrants shouldn't escape negative things that happen to affect them, but you believe that this should be true for people who say racist stuff?

There are non-legal ramifications for wearing the wrong shoes. For hanging out with certain people. For liking a certain kind of music. For dressing in a certain way. For having a certain type of sex, gender or sexuality. For having a certain type of skin color... Social pressure can suck in many ways. But what are you trying to say?


This is an example of how the definition of racism will change whenever it's convenient.

It doesn't change at all, racism is much broader than hate speech and inciting violent crime, which may be linked to racism, but isn't necessarily.

There are plenty of cases where someone so much as criticizes another group for something they are guilty of, and that person gets arrested for hate-speech. But by adding the qualifiers of 'inciting hate and harmful conduct' you can twist anything negative said into 'inciting hate.'

Please, show me some of these cases. Iirc, people have been racist of the obama, the most powerful man on earth at the time, yet who has been arrested and thrown in jail for that?


You don't understand the social-pressure I'm trying to talk about because you're the one who loves whipping up the crowd into a frenzy.

And you base this on what? I've been open to your arguments, but you fail to present any. Please be more concise about the social pressure you're talking about.


We don't have a natural tendency to defecate everywhere. Virtually everyone, even animals, leaves waste in appropriate areas. .
Children just defeceate everywhere. They must be taught not to. Yet, what is considered appropriate differs from animal to animal and culturally as well.
Our natural tendency to create society is not the same as the artificially created witch hunts and circlejerks against people who don't hold up to arbitrary social-standards. It has gotten to the point where society rules us, instead of us ruling society

And when was this not the case? I would say it has become less so, rather than more so. Before you were actually killed for not conforming to the social standards you now call arbitrary (but which, in another context, you would call the soul of a society or culture). IF you weren't observing religious practices, you risked being killed or ostracized from society. If you practiced wrong sexual norms publicly, same thing. Pretty much the worst thing you risk now is that you get a video of you on youtube.
And how does all of this relate to: I view the state as the expression of the national consciousness. If someone is not in tune with that conscious then they have no reason to live within the state's boundaries

-Children can tell the difference between colors. The idea that it's impossible for children to identify skin pigment without being trained to do so is absurd and clearly politically motivated.
Clearly they can see the difference between colors. They can also tell the difference between a horse and a pig. And between a human and monkey. A child will not just call another human a monkey if it hasn't gotten this from somewhere else. In fact, a child won't pretty much do anything that isn't related to things directly fundamental for survival, that it hasn't learned somewhere else...

-By pattern recognition I mean seeing a difference in behavior.

Which means what? And why do you call that pattern recognition. It's really hard to communicate with you...

-Trained racism is mostly an echo of the above 'natural racisms.'

Please show me the scientific basis for this claim.

It does not need to include things taught by their parents. In fact, for the sake of classifying this as a natural racism, it must exclude people who have been lectured by their parents on why black neighbors make their property value go down. If one kid recognizes a difference in phenotype then other children are going to absorb that.

Then what does it include? Again, where is the proof for this claim?


you don't need to attack racism. In fact most people who are on the receiving end of discrimination tend to only be defensive and reactionary about it.
They only care to the extent that it affects them.
Sure, then it should be, attack OR resist. How can you resist if you just remain silent? Plenty of people who are the victim of racism have tried to make sure that it doesn't affect others as well, nonetheless, it's indeed typical of most humans to only care about what directly affects them.


The people who obsessively attack racism, real or imaginary, tend to have other reasons. Furthermore, you're forcing an unnecessary polarity between bullying and silencing racism and being bullied and silenced by racists. Most people outside of the West are pretty damn racist. Even then, those people don't get bullied into silence.
Who gets bullied into silence? People in this thread have been pretty vocal. People have been pretty vocal in rallies across europe and the USA. There is racism outside the west as well, and actually it's something that's also a point of debate, south africa's situation is an example. If your best line of defense is simply... but look at them... then we can just stop here.

It's interesting how earlier you were accusing people of having an irrational phobia of the easily observable reaction to saying racist things, which you later acknowledged; yet you are the one who has an irrational fear.
No, I said that it was irrational to fear for your life or livelihood because of saying racist things. I never said that there were no consequences whatsoever. I can't see how I am the one with an irrational fear, as I can easily name more than 10 things in my personal life that have affected me negatively because of racism. Even more if I extend it to my immediate family. And I actually haven't faced much racism in my life. Please tell me, how many people do you know that have their life ruined because they said something which wasn't racist but other people hysterically perceived as such?

Disagreement is not the same as social-pressure. If someone I know says something stupid I might call them stupid, but it usually just ends there. I don't rally the masses to fire someone and get everyone to hate them.

You keep saying this, but I have yet to see any solid evidence of this being a widespread phenomenon.
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New Zealand zoom
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27 Jul 2018, 16:49

Snuden wrote:lol... Goodspeed, always thinks he knows best.
Zzzz...
Nutshellspeed.
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Tuvalu gibson
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27 Jul 2018, 18:14

Honestly I would recommend watching Lee Daniels the butler. It tells the story of a black man born in the early 20th century who was the first black presidential butler and the struggles he faced.
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Netherlands momuuu
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27 Jul 2018, 19:26

Racism doesnt necessarily come out of nowhere. In many countries a prejudice towards some ethnic group is actually a sensible prejudice. When one sees Romas walk around, its not unwise to pay extra attention to your belongings. This is a sensible thing to think or feeling to experience. I dont think true racism, where the hatred is literally purely based on them being a different ethnic group, is widespread. Yet some people like to frequently pull the racism card and some of them seem to imply all racism is like this. Often though this racism is just based on actual average differences between groups and will only truly go away when those disappear.

I notice I am being treated differently aswell when I go to the store wearing sweatpants instead of normal pants and my more fancy great coat. People have more negative associations with other people wearing sweatpants. Similairly, I have relatively negative associations with Moroccan people because I have had many negative encounters with those and few positive ones. Am I a racist for that? No, I am just a normally functioning human being. I actually also have more negative feelings towards clearly poor and uneducated white males, based on overwhelmingly more negative experiences than positive ones with those, so its clearly not exclusive to race.

Its unfortunate for those that dont fit the stereotype. That nice Arab guy that never harms anyone will always be checked twice at an airport and being black surely isnt going to be helpful in job interviews, despite the black person being just like the preferred white guy. This just sucks, but its not going to be solved by endlessly screaming racist at people that have a normally functioning brain. Instead scream at those fuckers that confirm the stereotype if these prejudices bother you so much.

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"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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France kami_ryu
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27 Jul 2018, 20:20

Racism and sexism is alive and well.

Obviously you may have never personally encountered it, but it's there. In any case I think that the first thing to do, regardless of your stance on the matter, is to acquire as much knowledge of the problem as possible. After that, judge for yourself.

You would be surprised at the depth of the problems people encounter. but they don't talk about it. they take it on the chin and move forward. so of course the rest of us think that all is well.
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Tuvalu gibson
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27 Jul 2018, 20:35

momuuu wrote:Racism doesnt necessarily come out of nowhere. In many countries a prejudice towards some ethnic group is actually a sensible prejudice. When one sees Romas walk around, its not unwise to pay extra attention to your belongings. This is a sensible thing to think or feeling to experience. I dont think true racism, where the hatred is literally purely based on them being a different ethnic group, is widespread. Yet some people like to frequently pull the racism card and some of them seem to imply all racism is like this. Often though this racism is just based on actual average differences between groups and will only truly go away when those disappear.

I notice I am being treated differently aswell when I go to the store wearing sweatpants instead of normal pants and my more fancy great coat. People have more negative associations with other people wearing sweatpants. Similairly, I have relatively negative associations with Moroccan people because I have had many negative encounters with those and few positive ones. Am I a racist for that? No, I am just a normally functioning human being. I actually also have more negative feelings towards clearly poor and uneducated white males, based on overwhelmingly more negative experiences than positive ones with those, so its clearly not exclusive to race.

Its unfortunate for those that dont fit the stereotype. That nice Arab guy that never harms anyone will always be checked twice at an airport and being black surely isnt going to be helpful in job interviews, despite the black person being just like the preferred white guy. This just sucks, but its not going to be solved by endlessly screaming racist at people that have a normally functioning brain. Instead scream at those fuckers that confirm the stereotype if these prejudices bother you so much.
I think it depends. Meeting someone new and refusing to be friendly to them or automatically assuming theyre a bad person because of their ethnicity or gender is different than having a bit of caution around a type of person who stereo typically tends to be more criminal. Fact is even for groups that are more violent or rude than the norm, it's still a very small minority of that group. So while no one is probably gonna think worse of you for being cautious, if you treat every black 20 year old you meet like they're a criminal(or whatever stereotype you have in your country), you're probably in the wrong.
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France kami_ryu
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27 Jul 2018, 20:38

Skin color doesn't do it for me though. It's about clothes, demeanor, attitude, etc.
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Tuvalu gibson
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27 Jul 2018, 20:54

kami_ryu wrote:Skin color doesn't do it for me though. It's about clothes, demeanor, attitude, etc.

Same here, those things usually tell much more about a person than skin color.
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Norway iwillspankyou
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27 Jul 2018, 22:42

Having prejudice is natural to humans. It's one of the ways we've survived. Assessing new people or unknown animals that could be a hazzard, is vice and could also be lifesaving. When we meet new people it's natural to be a little skeptical and curious. When these new people behave in a strange or criminal manner, our prejudices will be strengthened. If our new information reinforces the previous natural prejudices, they will be strengthened. What sets us apart is that some ppl will be open to new information, and change prejudice when they get new information. Some people, on the other hand, are not receptive to new information and want to keep their old prejudices at any cost.

ppl who cling on to their prejudice, in face of overwhelming evidence that counter it, are basically the Trump supporters, or the like, in every country. Its pretty much the same issues going on. :hmm:
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No Flag ElephantTusk
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27 Jul 2018, 22:44

Wow I’ve never been so triggered in my life
No Flag ElephantTusk
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27 Jul 2018, 22:46

iwillspankyou wrote:Having prejudice is natural to humans. It's one of the ways we've survived. Assessing new people or unknown animals that could be a hazzard, is vice and could also be lifesaving. When we meet new people it's natural to be a little skeptical and curious. When these new people behave in a strange or criminal manner, our prejudices will be strengthened. If our new information reinforces the previous natural prejudices, they will be strengthened. What sets us apart is that some ppl will be open to new information, and change prejudice when they get new information. Some people, on the other hand,



are not receptive to new





information and want to keep thold prejudices at any cost.


Are you justifying racism?
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Norway iwillspankyou
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iwillspankyou
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27 Jul 2018, 22:48

@ElephantTusk You should add the new lines I wrote 2. it would maybe trigger you even more ;)
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No Flag ElephantTusk
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27 Jul 2018, 23:08

iwillspankyou wrote:@ElephantTusk You should add the new lines I wrote 2. it would maybe trigger you even more ;)

So you’re saying racism is okay.
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Sweden Gendarme
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27 Jul 2018, 23:10

Look at it from the bright side. Without racism we wouldn't have these glorious threads.
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Norway iwillspankyou
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iwillspankyou
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27 Jul 2018, 23:13

ElephantTusk wrote:
iwillspankyou wrote:Having prejudice is natural to humans. It's one of the ways we've survived. Assessing new people or unknown animals that could be a hazzard, is vice and could also be lifesaving. When we meet new people it's natural to be a little skeptical and curious. When these new people behave in a strange or criminal manner, our prejudices will be strengthened. If our new information reinforces the previous natural prejudices, they will be strengthened. What sets us apart is that some ppl will be open to new information, and change prejudice when they get new information. Some people, on the other hand,



are not receptive to new





information and want to keep thold prejudices at any cost.


Are you justifying racism?


not at all. Im just trying to explain how the human mind works.
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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Finland somppukunkku
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27 Jul 2018, 23:35

tl:dr summary from a neutral perspective?
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When I win, it's with homo, illegal and wrong strats.
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Norway iwillspankyou
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iwillspankyou
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27 Jul 2018, 23:52

I gave @momuuu a like, cos he at least make an effort, explaining what he thinks. And on most points I will agree with him. That does not make me a racist. I have issues with Rom ppl comming here 2. they beg on every streat corner. At the same time, we know that they do not give their children the opertunety to education, and they marry their daughters at the age of 12, and push their woman to beg on the streat. This is not prejudice, is a merly a fact. So I dont condone this "culture" - sorry if I put some ppl here down. I am more concerned about the children not being given a chance to get out of this choucking culture. and the female children being raped at the age of 12.
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
Germany lordraphael
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27 Jul 2018, 23:54

somppukunkku wrote:tl:dr summary from a neutral perspective?

its been established that youre a racist :(
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Sweden Gendarme
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28 Jul 2018, 00:01

Read page 1 through 6 for a TL;DR @somppukunkku
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Norway iwillspankyou
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iwillspankyou
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28 Jul 2018, 00:51

Snuden wrote:lol... Goodspeed, always thinks he knows best.
Zzzz...

hmm, I guess it has nothing to do with you, but I always get this H2O replay in my head, its something about a gigant trash can. Not sure why its keeps pooping up whenever I read any post of yours :P :P
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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United States of America Cometk
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28 Jul 2018, 01:05

@iwillspankyou Don't continue with this.
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Sweden Gendarme
Jaeger
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ESO: Gendarme

28 Jul 2018, 01:09

Please do.
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things

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