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No Flag umeu
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28 Jul 2018, 01:39

It's funny how 1 word can make people lose their ability to read. Magical.
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Norway iwillspankyou
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28 Jul 2018, 01:41

umeu wrote:It's funny how 1 word can make people lose their ability to read. Magical.

what word was that?
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No Flag umeu
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28 Jul 2018, 01:52

momuuu wrote:Racism doesnt necessarily come out of nowhere. In many countries a prejudice towards some ethnic group is actually a sensible prejudice. When one sees Romas walk around, its not unwise to pay extra attention to your belongings. This is a sensible thing to think or feeling to experience. I dont think true racism, where the hatred is literally purely based on them being a different ethnic group, is widespread. Yet some people like to frequently pull the racism card and some of them seem to imply all racism is like this. Often though this racism is just based on actual average differences between groups and will only truly go away when those disappear.

I notice I am being treated differently aswell when I go to the store wearing sweatpants instead of normal pants and my more fancy great coat. People have more negative associations with other people wearing sweatpants. Similairly, I have relatively negative associations with Moroccan people because I have had many negative encounters with those and few positive ones. Am I a racist for that? No, I am just a normally functioning human being. I actually also have more negative feelings towards clearly poor and uneducated white males, based on overwhelmingly more negative experiences than positive ones with those, so its clearly not exclusive to race.

Its unfortunate for those that dont fit the stereotype. That nice Arab guy that never harms anyone will always be checked twice at an airport and being black surely isnt going to be helpful in job interviews, despite the black person being just like the preferred white guy. This just sucks, but its not going to be solved by endlessly screaming racist at people that have a normally functioning brain. Instead scream at those fuckers that confirm the stereotype if these prejudices bother you so much.


The irony of this post is almost too much to bear haha. Please tell me you see it, Jeruma.
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Norway iwillspankyou
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28 Jul 2018, 01:58

tbo, I think Jeruma made a pretty sensible post, and I dont find it prejudice, over the point where you should expect it to be. He is merly explaining what IT IS, imo. I bet there are many more aspects of this issue, but I dont think its nice to ricucule a person who write what he feels, - and it even make sense.
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No Flag umeu
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28 Jul 2018, 02:31

iwillspankyou wrote:tbo, I think Jeruma made a pretty sensible post, and I dont find it prejudice, over the point where you should expect it to be. He is merly explaining what IT IS, imo. I bet there are many more aspects of this issue, but I dont think its nice to ricucule a person who write what he feels, - and it even make sense.

I am not ridiculing him, and you clearly don't see the irony, which I didn't expect you to, so that's fine. I'll explain it later when I have more time, but maybe someone will understand it before than. :uglylol:
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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28 Jul 2018, 04:42

This morning I decided to stop looking at new posts in this thread, and I can already feel my blood pressure dropping
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
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28 Jul 2018, 05:40

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Cyprus Snuden
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28 Jul 2018, 06:02

iwillspankyou wrote:
Snuden wrote:lol... Goodspeed, always thinks he knows best.
Zzzz...

hmm, I guess it has nothing to do with you, but I always get this H2O replay in my head, its something about a gigant trash can. Not sure why its keeps pooping up whenever I read any post of yours :P :P

Let me tell you why... It is because you are an imbecile.
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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France [Armag] diarouga
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28 Jul 2018, 06:18

ATTACKKKK!!!!!
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Great Britain InsectPoison
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28 Jul 2018, 07:53

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:Racism doesnt necessarily come out of nowhere. In many countries a prejudice towards some ethnic group is actually a sensible prejudice. When one sees Romas walk around, its not unwise to pay extra attention to your belongings. This is a sensible thing to think or feeling to experience. I dont think true racism, where the hatred is literally purely based on them being a different ethnic group, is widespread. Yet some people like to frequently pull the racism card and some of them seem to imply all racism is like this. Often though this racism is just based on actual average differences between groups and will only truly go away when those disappear.

I notice I am being treated differently aswell when I go to the store wearing sweatpants instead of normal pants and my more fancy great coat. People have more negative associations with other people wearing sweatpants. Similairly, I have relatively negative associations with Moroccan people because I have had many negative encounters with those and few positive ones. Am I a racist for that? No, I am just a normally functioning human being. I actually also have more negative feelings towards clearly poor and uneducated white males, based on overwhelmingly more negative experiences than positive ones with those, so its clearly not exclusive to race.

Its unfortunate for those that dont fit the stereotype. That nice Arab guy that never harms anyone will always be checked twice at an airport and being black surely isnt going to be helpful in job interviews, despite the black person being just like the preferred white guy. This just sucks, but its not going to be solved by endlessly screaming racist at people that have a normally functioning brain. Instead scream at those fuckers that confirm the stereotype if these prejudices bother you so much.


The irony of this post is almost too much to bear haha. Please tell me you see it, Jeruma.


Actually I'm gonna have to agree with Jeroms post on this one, it's not too far off tbh. Where is the irony in it?
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United States of America Cometk
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28 Jul 2018, 08:11

@Snuden @iwillspankyou This is the last warning.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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28 Jul 2018, 08:32

Even being cautious around someone who is statistically more likely to be a criminal, while understandable, is maintaining the status quo and I think that, as thinking people in a developed world, we need to be above that. The subtle ways in which minorities get discriminated against are making them more likely to fall into that stereotype. And the change needs to start with us.
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No Flag 91
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28 Jul 2018, 08:39

Yes it's human nature to judge people based on looks and origin, and especially when fear is involved, BUT we should all try our best to get rid of this and give everyone the benefit of the doubt, otherwise we get nowhere! We're never gonna get the best people for the job, and so many will feel left out for no reason at all - giving them the same reasons to judge too, just spiraling down.

I agree screaming racist won't help because rarely does it change the person's mind. But we should definitely speak up when we see it happen, maybe just a casual "hey, lets move on now ok?", or for less confronting people: "don't listen to that guy, we're on your side", or "that was weird" for less obvious things, after he leaves. because "racist" tend to trigger never-ending discussions (as seen here). But it DOES help for the bystanders' future actions to see the opposition, and it DEFINITELY helps the affected seeing that people do not agree with it.

Never let people feel judged based on their look, you're increasing the division both ways. If you feel unsafe, do what you need to do but discreetly. The important thing is how you treat people openly, and how you talk about them to others, because other people will easily pick up and add judgments to their own brain if you include skin color details only when they're different from your own color for example.
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Tuvalu gibson
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28 Jul 2018, 13:20

Goodspeed wrote:Even being cautious around someone who is statistically more likely to be a criminal, while understandable, is maintaining the status quo and I think that, as thinking people in a developed world, we need to be above that. The subtle ways in which minorities get discriminated against are making them more likely to fall into that stereotype. And the change needs to start with us.
Yea in a perfect world no one would stereotype but come on we gotta be realistic here. If people don't show that they're doing it and if it ultimately doesn't effect the way they interact with people I don't really have a problem with it tbh
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Sweden Gendarme
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28 Jul 2018, 13:36

You are all prejudiced against racists you intolerant hypocrites.
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Netherlands momuuu
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28 Jul 2018, 14:36

Its incredibly naive to think human nature can be changed at a large scale. You can tell someone that it is nit correct and wrobg as much as you like, but that isnt goibg to outweigh the fact that basically every member of a specific ethnic group that person met confirmed the stereotype. At that point the stereotype comes pretty damned close to the truth, when less than 5% doesnt fit the stereotype.

Youre not going to convince people to do the 'right thing' if in practise its almost always better to not do so. Its naive to think you can, especially once you consider the average intelligence of people.

By simply labeling their justified feelings as racism and by verbally attacking people for having normal prejudices you're not going to achieve anything. It just strengthens their beliefs and actually feeds hatred, they will feel bothered and angry by people saying they are wrong even though their opinion is usually based on tons of bad experiences that confirmed the stereotype.

Its very counterproductive to try to solve racism in this way. Instead, special attention is needed to make some ethnic groups close the existant gap between those groups and the priviledged groups. What doesnt work is to act like umeu, to actively provoke each and everyone and then, once theyve responded to his barrage of provocations and insults, pull the racism card.

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France [Armag] diarouga
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28 Jul 2018, 15:16

momuuu wrote:Its incredibly naive to think human nature can be changed at a large scale. You can tell someone that it is nit correct and wrobg as much as you like, but that isnt goibg to outweigh the fact that basically every member of a specific ethnic group that person met confirmed the stereotype. At that point the stereotype comes pretty damned close to the truth, when less than 5% doesnt fit the stereotype.

Youre not going to convince people to do the 'right thing' if in practise its almost always better to not do so. Its naive to think you can, especially once you consider the average intelligence of people.

By simply labeling their justified feelings as racism and by verbally attacking people for having normal prejudices you're not going to achieve anything. It just strengthens their beliefs and actually feeds hatred, they will feel bothered and angry by people saying they are wrong even though their opinion is usually based on tons of bad experiences that confirmed the stereotype.

Its very counterproductive to try to solve racism in this way. Instead, special attention is needed to make some ethnic groups close the existant gap between those groups and the priviledged groups. What doesnt work is to act like umeu, to actively provoke each and everyone and then, once theyve responded to his barrage of provocations and insults, pull the racism card.

I totally agree with that.
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No Flag umeu
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28 Jul 2018, 15:27

It's funny, because I haven't actually insulted anyone. Nor have I called anyone a racist. In fact it's you and some others who constantly pull the "they pull the racism card" card. As if by trying to discredit someone's opinion by dumbing down the narrative to the equivalent of a children's board game is a legit approach to a discussion. Btw, you didn't have any trouble with pulling this "card" as an argument to keep diarouga banned.

The irony is that you want other people, who you say are unfortunate to be the unjustified victim of (racial) stereotyping, to simply suck it up, and if they do get upset, aim their discontent at the people who supposedly confirm the stereotype. But whatever they do, they shouldn't lay any of the blame for their unjust treatment with the people who have treated them unjustly, because, my lord, that would be such an illogical thing to do.

Enter Jerom, who is clearly upset that he has been treated unjustly because of what he believes is unjustified stereotyping/judgment of him, and what does he do? He gets upset with the people who, in his mind, have treated him unjustly. Mind is... blown...

By simply labeling their justified feelings of being the victims of prejudice, and by verbally attacking people for having a normal sense of anger about this, you're not going to achieve anything. It just strengthens their belief and actually feeds their discontent. They will feel ignored and mistreated by people saying they are wrong, even though their opinion is usually based on tons of bad experiences which led them to voice their anger about racism in the first place.

This is not what I believe, but have you considered that, maybe you (in the general sense) are called a racist because you confirm the stereotype that white people are racist, or because they have had many negative experiences with people who look similar to you. And if you don't confirm the stereotype, then sorry, but you'll just have to deal with it or get mad at the people who have confirmed the stereotype and made it so that you have to constantly hear that you are a racist. Telling them that they are wrong and that they are constantly pulling the racism card isn't going to work. In fact it's a very counterproductive way to solve your problem. Instead, special attention is needed to make certain people aware of their white privilege (I propose a movie and a series called "Dear white people..."), and close the gaps between them and underprivileged groups. What definitely doesn't work is to act like a racist, provoke and insult everyone, and then once you're called a racist, pull the "you pull the racism card" card.

You might think that what you say is sensible, but in fact it's just the same kind of thinking that has lead to some of history's darkest pages. The nazi's also believed that they had good reasons to have negative associations with jews, and they also based this on their experience, and they also believed the world shouldnt oppose them for their treatment of the jews, because obviously if the jews werent so bad, they wouldnt mistreat the jews. The same is true for the hutus and tutsis. For the kkk and "niggers". For the chinese and tibetans. For the burmese and rohingya. So what is the difference? Obviously there is one, but its merely a matter of degree, and not principle. So where is the line? How can we tell that we've crossed it? Your kind of thinking, when not tempered by moderation and reason inevitably will lead to massacres. So i don't see whats wrong with trying to prevent that.

I personally agree with Gibson on the fact that I don't really care what people think. You can hate half the world for my part. I merely care about what you put into action. Nobody has to accept anyone, if you think homosexuality is a sin, then it's your right to believe that. To a point, I also believe that you can voice that opinion, as long as you're not inciting violence (that doesn't mean that it therefor should go unopposed, if people disagree with it, they may say so too, and they may call you whatever they want for it as well, just like you're allowed to call homosexuals whatever you want). But, when we get to the point where you are infringing upon others peoples rights and liberties, then I say it has to stop. And due to conscious and subconscious prejudice, this happens all too often. And in fact, very often people have not had many negative encounters with the people they hold prejudice against. They may have had some. But very often it's that they have heard or seen something from someone else. In either case, it doesn't really matter. We ought to be innocent until proven guilty, and with prejudice (which includes but isn't limited to racism) you are often just guilty. Sometimes guilty until proven innocent, but usually just guilty. I really don't see how that is a sensible approach to building community. You can disagree with me about this, but in my mind, and in the mind of many others apparently as well, it's simply unacceptable to mistreat an innocent person because you've had bad experiences in the past and project those bad experiences upon someone else who had nothing to do with them.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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28 Jul 2018, 15:28

gibson wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Even being cautious around someone who is statistically more likely to be a criminal, while understandable, is maintaining the status quo and I think that, as thinking people in a developed world, we need to be above that. The subtle ways in which minorities get discriminated against are making them more likely to fall into that stereotype. And the change needs to start with us.
Yea in a perfect world no one would stereotype but come on we gotta be realistic here. If people don't show that they're doing it and if it ultimately doesn't effect the way they interact with people I don't really have a problem with it tbh
If it doesn't affect the way they interact with people that's great, and I think that's what we should strive for. But often enough it does, and even if very subtly, minorities who have to deal with that all their lives see right through it.
Its incredibly naive to think human nature can be changed at a large scale. You can tell someone that it is nit correct and wrobg as much as you like, but that isnt goibg to outweigh the fact that basically every member of a specific ethnic group that person met confirmed the stereotype. At that point the stereotype comes pretty damned close to the truth, when less than 5% doesnt fit the stereotype.
What negative racial stereotype fits more than 95% of its population??
Youre not going to convince people to do the 'right thing' if in practise its almost always better to not do so. Its naive to think you can, especially once you consider the average intelligence of people.
I don't think anyone believes they are able to convince people to do the right thing here. I just think it's a point that needs to be made, because I think a lot of people here haven't heard it or it hasn't gotten through to them. If we continue to discriminate against minorities based on existing stereotypes it's never going to get better.
By simply labeling their justified feelings as racism and by verbally attacking people for having normal prejudices you're not going to achieve anything.
What matters is how they act on those feelings. You can't help your prejudices, we all have them, but if you let them affect the way you treat people they become self-fulfilling. I know it's hard to do, but we need to assume the best in people in order to not bring out the worst in them. This is true for any interaction, but especially relevant when it comes to racial prejudice.
Its very counterproductive to try to solve racism in this way. Instead, special attention is needed to make some ethnic groups close the existant gap between those groups and the priviledged groups.
I think you need to do both, and both are equally important, and only one of those can be done by us individuals. Helping integration on a large scale is a problem to solve for governments, and in the meantime we can try not to let our prejudices affect the way we treat strangers. The two are also quite connected, as it is harder to integrate in a society whose members treat you as if you don't belong to it.

For the record, I don't believe it will get better any time soon. But this is what I personally strive for and what I think we all need to strive for. For someone on the receiving end of discrimination, being treated like a regular person can help them see that the "us against them" attitude is counter-productive, whereas the opposite will reinforce that attitude both in them and by extension in the people they interact with in the future. Again, the change needs to come from us.
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Sweden Gendarme
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28 Jul 2018, 15:33

Let's raise this a notch. Why is it worse if you dislike people for their skin color than any other trait, inherited or not.
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United States of America Cometk
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28 Jul 2018, 15:42

because it's an unchangeable trait.

if you dislike someone because he's an asshole, that asshole can make steps to atone for his behavior and become a better person. you can't change your skin color, or your sexuality, or your age.
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Sweden Gendarme
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28 Jul 2018, 15:50

Seems more like an arbitrary statement, rather than a reasoned one. Some argue that free will is an illusion, but still condemn racial hatred more than any other form of hatred.
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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United States of America Cometk
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28 Jul 2018, 15:56

he has no control over his skin colour or sexuality, so why hate him for it?

you could hate someone for how their intentional decision affected you, but their race? their sexuality? for one, how do these things affect you, in their own right?
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No Flag umeu
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28 Jul 2018, 16:02

Nobody dislikes people because the color of their skin. They hate other things, and they believe they can tell by color of skin whether or not someone possesses/does these things. The thing that's wrong is the fact that skin color, or another trait, is linked to things that have nothing to do with that trait. And that people who possess the one trait, are judged and sentenced for other traits they are assumed to have, but might not possess.

If you dislike someone because he smells bad, and you dislike bad smells, that's a legit reason to dislike someone. What's not legit is to then attach that dislike to a host of other things which aren't connected to that trait or that person. It's possible that every person you've met so far that smelled bad also had greasy hair, but unless there's scientific proof of a causal relationship between bad smell and greasy hair it's unreasonable to believe that everyone who smells bad has greasy hair. It would be even more unreasonable to believe that everyone who smells bad has bad moral character, is a thief and a murderer.

If you dislike a certain skin color, and therefore all people who have that color, that simply means you don't like their melanin level. Considering that this isn't a crime, you have no right to treat them as criminals, to infringe upon their rights or to obstruct their liberty or pursuit of happiness. If everyone was allowed to mistreat people for having traits that they didn't like, how do you envision a functioning society? If I were a doctor, and I would get a patient who happens to have a trait I dislike, is it ok for the doctor to put less effort into saving this person? What if I were a judge? What if I were a police officer? What if I were a baker someone comes into my store and has a trait I don't like, should I be allowed to refuse this person bread? In the end it's in everyone's best interest to eliminate this type of behaviour, and hopefully (although I acknowledge this is much harder, and perhaps impossible), the prejudice which gives rise to it. The only people who won't acknowledge this are the people who are on the right side of the guillotine and who are so blinded by their dominant group privilege that they can't imagine that the tables might one day be turned (or perhaps that's exactly what they're afraid of and will do everything in their power to make sure that the tables won't get turned)

Simply put, you can like or dislike whatever you want, but you can't act upon those likes and dislikes in whatever way you want.

Btw, I personally don't think that racism is worse than any other form of discrimination.
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Netherlands momuuu
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28 Jul 2018, 16:40

@Goodspeed the Dutch moroccan stereotype is reasonably accurate for the moroccans in Utrecht. 95% seems like a fair estimate in my opinion.

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"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy

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