Dear white people

This is for discussions about news, politics, sports, other games, culture, philosophy etc.
User avatar
No Flag 91
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 493
Joined: Jun 21, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by 91 »

Lukas_L99 wrote:Another source which specifically reports crime in context of immigration in 2016: https://www.bka.de/DE/AktuelleInformati ... _node.html

"Interesting" facts:

Crimes against the sexual self-determination: [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
9,1% of at least one suspected immigrant, even though they make up ~2% of the total population.

Crimes against the sexual self-determination by nationality: [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
318,7% (!) increase for people from Syria, 329,7% for people from Iran and 259,3% for people from Afghanistan.

And per 100.000 inhabitants: [spoiler]Image[/spoiler]


Now it would be interesting to see for example the unemployment rates for these same groups.
User avatar
No Flag 91
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 493
Joined: Jun 21, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by 91 »

lordraphael wrote:
gibson wrote:Is there someone who can actually post statistics from a reliable source which show that, on average, a non European immigrant is more prone to criminal activity? And when I say a reliable source I mean something which explains its method of testing and uses a sound method, not, for example, infowars

Im not sure if you seriously doubt that this is not the case. Anyways 2017 official crime statistic in germany have registered that 8.5 % of all crimes are commited by refugees while they make up only 2 % of the population. In fields like rape,robbery and grievous bodily harm numbers are even higher at 15 % - 15.9 %.
How is this statistic being made? Actually quite simple its from all the filed police reports in germany during 1 year. Obviously there are problems with this statistics because it only takes those crimes in to account that have been registered by the police. Particularly in rape cases its being assumed that the dark figure is much higher. But I think its a solid indication.

Furthermore since the big refugee waves of 2015 and 16 registered crime is at an all time high compared to the numbers before the years of 2015 and 16. While the number of overall crimes is decreasing slowly since those peak years. Heavy crimes such as rape heavy assault etc. are steadily rising.

Now anyone with a brain can figure out that theres a distinct correlation between refugees/ immigrants and crime.
Also the most famous econocmi scientist calculated that the refugees alone will cost germany roughly 300 billion euro over the next decades, mainly because they are uneducated and cant be integrated into the jobmarket. Meaning that the social welfare state has to pay for them. ( numbers for people who get aid from the welfare state are also significantly higher for immigrants and refugees realitve to the overall population ( think its somewhere at 20+ % while only 8.5 % have a migration background).

in Summary theres clear evidence that unlimited migration and taking up refugees is bad for a country
Its really a no brainer that in general people are sceptical towards this and its not really racism. No one wants to give up a better living standard when he gains nothing in return and thats basically it. Ofc theres also people that just hate people from muslim nations / other nations.

I could link you the references but im afraid they are in german, but those are official numbers from the goverment.


This is probably true but as you say they are probably overrepresented because they have bad social conditions, maybe in some cases a different culture, not because of their looks. Do you have statistics for german people with foreign born parents that we could compare with? And comparison for people with same social conditions like unemployment, living condition and savings - germans and immigrants.

Also is the gender/age representation among immigrants different?, I didn't see any info about that despite crimes correlate with age/gender in many cases, depending on what type of crime.

Not denying any of it, statistics are statistics but you make it a bit too simple what we should judge. Not even professionals can untangle all of it.

Most important thing is not statistics anyway. Some groups will be overrepresented for many reasons, including country/religion/culture of origin yes, even though social conditions usually have a much bigger impact. But what if a guy is born with foreign parents, growing up a true german in school etc. But he can't make it because of his roots and what other people from the same country as his parents have done. That's just sad. That's where we can do better imo
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Dear white people

Post by deleted_user0 »

blasdg wrote:I completely understand your point @ umeu and you are right, of course poverty, lack of education, wrong expectations when coming to Europe, mistreatment by the people that helped them to get to Europe, different socialization etc. are the true reasons why immigrants are much more often criminals than germans are.
And I also acknowledge that you kind of deny people the chance to prove that they are actually decdent humans by looking at the statistics.

But then tell me what to do. Because these statistics, they dont lie.


There are different things being discussed in this thread, and what we started with was based mostly on the conditions in America (and a little bit on the conditions in the Netherlands, belgium and france), which are very different and not really comparable to what's happening in Germany (and maybe scandinavia, I don't know enough to say) at the moment. If you're really interested then you could read this book: I was told to come alone by Souad Mekhennet, a German journalist with Moroccan/Turkish heritage. Tbh it doesn't just provide a very well written account of what's happening at the moment with ISIS, immigration etc, but it's also just a very well written book.

1) If I own a company and have to hire people, I will STILL always go for the german. Simply because I need to make money and cant be worried about problems that might occur with a much much higher propability if I take the syrian worker. Understandable from my pint of view and it has nothing to do with race or gender or smell.

3) I can tell you at least 20 cities in Germany that have MASSIVE problems with immigrants. No-go-areas (politicians denied their existence a few years ago but now it is just too obvious), dead people pretty much every week. I can tell you that the rate of sexual crimes skyrocketed. I can tell you that the rate of young women getting literally raped to death has skyrocketed. I can tell you that a baby was beheaded (!!!) in Hamburg, at daytime! I can tell you that things like "Silvester 2015 Köln" and other gang-rape parties and/or "discussions between huge families" (quote of a german police dude) are on the rise. Everybody can look this up, I am not talking out of my arse. Knowing all that I am just waaaay more careful when being alone in the dark, especially as a woman (im not btw.). I try to avoid contact with foreigners as much as I can outside and I always think: "Better safe than sorry". This again has nothing to do with race or gender or smell - but with statistics and the will to live. And I can tell you, I wholeheartedly agree with everyone who tells me that he/she is extra important when talking to strangers. You can call that racism - but I simply dont agree and will ignore people who tell me to just "get along with them". Because I dont want to be the next person who newspapers write about. I am not willing to risk my life when all I get on exchange is that some random dude stops calling me a racist ;)

Yes, I can see what you're trying to say. But the last part you say just isn't true. It does have to do with ethnicity as well.
Look, there's nothing wrong with compiling statistics and using these statistics to highlight a problem, obviously assuming those statistics are sincere and don't lack in integrity (Which more than often is the case, not just race statistics, but just statistics in general). So when you say Syrian immigrants have been involved in violent crime more often compared to other population groups, that's not discrimination.
But when you then think of every Syrian you meet as a violent criminal, you are discriminating against that person based on ethnicity, which perhaps for a lack of a better word, we call racism at the moment.

Some people are angry and afraid, and perhaps they have good reasons for it. Nonetheless, the attitude you've described, while intuitive perhaps, is only going to make matters worse. If people don't learn to live together and are instead split down such hostile lines, there's gonna be genocide at some point, history is full of these examples. In order to avoid that it takes an effort from both sides.


2) Maybe something more from my personal life: I work at university as a Ph.D student in Chemistry and we have a lot of people who want to write their bachelor thesis or master thesis or whatever thesis they need. If I have the choice between a german and, say, a Chinese and both have comparable grades and are not completely retarded when speaking to them - guess what? My boss will tell me to pick the german. Mostly because of language issues that often arise when dealing with foreigners. Again, its not about race or gender or smell - its just far far less convenient in terms of working together to pick a Chinese man/woman instead of a german. Racism?


No, this isn't necessarily racism or racial/ethnic discrimination because the process of differentiation isn't based on ethnicity. I mean, perhaps if there had been a test for language proficiency, and both of them had scored equally on that test, or even more so if the Chinese student had scored higher on that test, then a case for discrimination could've been made. It could definitely be made in the case of both students having been born/grown up in Germany and attended all levels of German education. In that case there's no reason to choose for the German student over the German student with Chinese heritage. Sadly, this type of racism does happen all too often, and it's the type of racism that I think was intended to be the point of discussion when GS made this thread.



What must happen to solve the problem?
I can tell you one thing that is true for Germany from my experience: As long as crime statistics rise higher and higher and the german government still makes the politics of "open borders" (what I actually changed as soon as I had the powers to do so), people WILL NOT CHANGE. The climate in Germany is so hysterical, especially from the left side, that as soon as you mention statistics you are a racist (happens every day). That is part of the reason why the right parties are on the rise, as they are in Sweden, France, the Netherlands (hello @ Geert Wilders) and Austria, Eastern Europe never welcomed refugees in the first place. People are being sick called a racist when a large group of the people that come here are making EVERYTHING much worse. And because they cant look into the heart and the brain of the refugees, they say:
"Better safe than sorry."
And I cant judge them for that, because Germany as a country is not gaining ANYTHING, the society is not gaining ANYTHING and the individual people in Germany are also not gaining a lot, while we risk our culture, our safety, our wealth and the whole European idea.

So, what must happen to solve the problem?![


It's not wrong at all to say that open border immigration is a problem, it's definitely not racist by definition, but very often there's also racism involved by people who oppose it. But I see no reason why Germany can't have a political party that discusses these matters and proposes solutions without discriminating. In the Netherlands we have Geert Wilders and then we have the VVD. Basically the difference between a party which downright discriminates, and a party that is against immigration (for the most part) but at least tries to debate it in a more rational way.

In any case, short of committing genocide (genocide isn't always killing but can also mean forced deportation), a realistic solution has to be either integration, assimilation or segregation.

I personally think that any successful integrative immigration policy should prevent that people cluster together, should include mandatory language learning (but it has to be well organised, I think the state has this responsibility, and the immigrant is responsible for showing up.) and a job program.
Germany lordraphael
Pro Player
EWTNWC LAN SilverAdvanced Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 2549
Joined: Jun 28, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by lordraphael »

91 wrote:
lordraphael wrote:
gibson wrote:Is there someone who can actually post statistics from a reliable source which show that, on average, a non European immigrant is more prone to criminal activity? And when I say a reliable source I mean something which explains its method of testing and uses a sound method, not, for example, infowars

Im not sure if you seriously doubt that this is not the case. Anyways 2017 official crime statistic in germany have registered that 8.5 % of all crimes are commited by refugees while they make up only 2 % of the population. In fields like rape,robbery and grievous bodily harm numbers are even higher at 15 % - 15.9 %.
How is this statistic being made? Actually quite simple its from all the filed police reports in germany during 1 year. Obviously there are problems with this statistics because it only takes those crimes in to account that have been registered by the police. Particularly in rape cases its being assumed that the dark figure is much higher. But I think its a solid indication.

Furthermore since the big refugee waves of 2015 and 16 registered crime is at an all time high compared to the numbers before the years of 2015 and 16. While the number of overall crimes is decreasing slowly since those peak years. Heavy crimes such as rape heavy assault etc. are steadily rising.

Now anyone with a brain can figure out that theres a distinct correlation between refugees/ immigrants and crime.
Also the most famous econocmi scientist calculated that the refugees alone will cost germany roughly 300 billion euro over the next decades, mainly because they are uneducated and cant be integrated into the jobmarket. Meaning that the social welfare state has to pay for them. ( numbers for people who get aid from the welfare state are also significantly higher for immigrants and refugees realitve to the overall population ( think its somewhere at 20+ % while only 8.5 % have a migration background).

in Summary theres clear evidence that unlimited migration and taking up refugees is bad for a country
Its really a no brainer that in general people are sceptical towards this and its not really racism. No one wants to give up a better living standard when he gains nothing in return and thats basically it. Ofc theres also people that just hate people from muslim nations / other nations.

I could link you the references but im afraid they are in german, but those are official numbers from the goverment.


This is probably true but as you say they are probably overrepresented because they have bad social conditions, maybe in some cases a different culture, not because of their looks. Do you have statistics for german people with foreign born parents that we could compare with? And comparison for people with same social conditions like unemployment, living condition and savings - germans and immigrants.

Also is the gender/age representation among immigrants different?, I didn't see any info about that despite crimes correlate with age/gender in many cases, depending on what type of crime.

Not denying any of it, statistics are statistics but you make it a bit too simple what we should judge. Not even professionals can untangle all of it.

Most important thing is not statistics anyway. Some groups will be overrepresented for many reasons, including country/religion/culture of origin yes, even though social conditions usually have a much bigger impact. But what if a guy is born with foreign parents, growing up a true german in school etc. But he can't make it because of his roots and what other people from the same country as his parents have done. That's just sad. That's where we can do better imo

and you guys make it more complicated than it is. Im not against immigration and im def no racist, ive never been called that by anyone and i do have quite a few german friends with migration background or just straight up foreigners. The stats show the truth. What you guys are asking is kinda irrelevant because it doesnt really matter.
A) unlimited immigration is bad. Im all for immigration from educated people no matter from whicch country, germany needs that kind of immigration infact.
B ) people with migrational background and refugees are def more likely to become criminal than people born in germany, just like their ancestors did. now you guys are claiming its becasue they are primarily young male people, no work etc. and i agree those are certainly very dominant factors. But we cant change that and we wont be able to within the next few decades. Unless someone comes up with a masterplan that suddenly makes those people become model citizens, which i dont see happening.
So why would anyone want all of that when theres nothing to be gained but much to be lost.
Any rational men wouldnt, but if you say it out loud youre labeled a racist by mainstream media, by politics. We are so deep in this narration that immigration is good, that theres space and money for everyone, that there are no drawbacks for the original population that anyone opposing this narration is dismissed as racist altho he brings valid concerns.

This recently happened with Horst Seehofer ,secretary of inner affairs in ger, for example. Im not a fan of him and i know he made his moves mostly for tactical reasons to help is party in upcoming bavarian elections, but he had a valid point, basically what he tried to do was to enforce german laws, yet the media demonized him, called him racist etc. Just for voicing his opinion and not backing down immediatly. And people are fed up with this behaviour by politicians, media etc.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
User avatar
No Flag 91
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 493
Joined: Jun 21, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by 91 »

@lordraphael You seem to have missed my main point which was only about judging a person you never seen based on statistics, that's not for you personally but for people using the statistics in such ways. That's all :)

The second point was that statistics are difficult. I agree immigration cause issues, see below. Just that the numbers presented here are a bit misleading. Even if that doesn't make up for the whole difference it does change the numbers quite a bit. Not to be forgotten though, like i think your point is, that immigration/integration politics in itself can be the cause of those social conditions anway. Integrating in a new country is never easy, much harder if your economy is bad.

You also talk about opposing too much immigration which i never mentioned at all. But since you did here's what i think: taking refugees (note, refugees is only a part of immigration) is not about making your own country better. It's about sacrificing something to give a person a better chance to a good life. Taking too many will sacrifice a lot ofc. The fact is still that living in a refugee camp is not a good life even if you have food water and shelter. Question is how much rich countries are willing to sacrifice to help.
User avatar
No Flag 91
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 493
Joined: Jun 21, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by 91 »

For the fact that people don't want to be called racist:
Racism: "Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."

If you match in that description you are a racist, that's simple language. Whatever reasons you may have, statistics or human nature, it will still fit into that category.

The only thing you can do is convince people being a racist is not as bad as it sounds, or that we are all racists.

Also, if people hate being called racists so much maybe it's easier to grasp why dark skinned people don't like being called monkeys. It's not about the technical definition of the word, but how you use it and what it represents.

(before you respond, i understand that people call each other racists when it's not the case and agree it's not a good idea, please just look ag the point im trying to make) :)
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Dear white people

Post by Gendarme »

I don't see any practical way of defining racism. "Superior" is very vague. People are better at some things, and worse at other things, e.g. blacks are superior to whites when it comes to not getting skin cancer. If by "superior" you mean something else and are not referring to actual superiority you'd have to come up with a makeshift definition that only causes more confusion than anything else. I think "racism" is a meaningless buzzword and should never be used in serious discourse.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Dear white people

Post by Gendarme »

umeu wrote:But when you then think of every Syrian you meet as a violent criminal, you are discriminating against that person based on ethnicity, which perhaps for a lack of a better word, we call racism at the moment.

Some people are angry and afraid, and perhaps they have good reasons for it. Nonetheless, the attitude you've described, while intuitive perhaps, is only going to make matters worse. If people don't learn to live together and are instead split down such hostile lines, there's gonna be genocide at some point, history is full of these examples. In order to avoid that it takes an effort from both sides.

[...]

In any case, short of committing genocide (genocide isn't always killing but can also mean forced deportation), a realistic solution has to be either integration, assimilation or segregation.

I personally think that any successful integrative immigration policy should prevent that people cluster together, should include mandatory language learning (but it has to be well organised, I think the state has this responsibility, and the immigrant is responsible for showing up.) and a job program.
Of course it makes matters worse, which is why so many of us are condemning open borders. Even if you have the perfect assimilation and integration plan, there is a limit to how much a society can take before falling apart, especially when the immigrants are enemies of the culture of the host nation. The idea of mass immigration combined with integration is nothing but a big lie. Afghanistan doesn't become a greater nation, Sweden certainly does not become a better place, and no lives are saved in the long run. Other than causing chaos, nothing is accomplished.

You cannot force societies to coexist. If French people and Russians hate each other, you don't import five million Russians to Paris and create new discrimination laws—you simply let the people segregate as they are supposed to. Your opinion that French people and Russians are supposed to get along is irrelevant. Tell me, is this a matter of poor assimilation policies, or is it a case of two incompatible cultures forced to coexist?

Regarding "discrimination" in general, let's say black people in California baselessly have a harder time getting employed than white people. Why is this a problem? The number of jobs and jobless people remain the same. In fact, letting this continue is better than making it illegal to "discriminate", because it incentivizes blacks to move out of California where they aren't welcome instead of having forced hostile coexistence in addition to ramped up government regulation. Now you may think that baselessly disliking someone is bad and it needs to be fixed urgently, but any downside it has is only amplified by the measures to sweep it under the rug with discrimination laws, not to mention that you probably are not one to tell others what is baseless and what isn't.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 3372
Joined: Dec 18, 2017
ESO: lamergamer
Location: North Macedonia
Clan: c0ns

Re: Dear white people

Post by Sargsyan »

Can we lock this thread pls ? thanks
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by Goodspeed »

The lack of solidarity here is staggering. Nothing is gained? Refugees are gaining a safe place to live and for their children to grow up ffs. And sure, that's not your problem. Have you lost touch with your humanity completely?

This attitude is the beginning of the dystopian future where we have ghettos separated from skyscrapers by physical walls. Dystopian for the people in the ghettos, that is, and who cares right? God forbid they muddy our waters.

How would you feel about this issue as a Syrian refugee?
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Dear white people

Post by deleted_user0 »

Gendarme wrote:
Regarding "discrimination" in general, let's say black people in California baselessly have a harder time getting employed than white people. Why is this a problem? The number of jobs and jobless people remain the same. In fact, letting this continue is better than making it illegal to "discriminate", because it incentivizes blacks to move out of California where they aren't welcome instead of having forced hostile coexistence in addition to ramped up government regulation. Now you may think that baselessly disliking someone is bad and it needs to be fixed urgently, but any downside it has is only amplified by the measures to sweep it under the rug with discrimination laws, not to mention that you probably are not one to tell others what is baseless and what isn't.


It's a problem if you're the one "baselessly" not getting a job. And it's a problem for the other people in that society who have to deal with the side effects of people baselessly not getting a job. Nobody is even making it illegal to discriminate, no idea what you put that between brackets, it's been one of the cornerstones of democracy for a long time, and it's what's required for equality. Perhaps you think that equality isn't a good idea, that's another story. I don't care whether people like or dislike others without reason, but there are limits to how you can act upon those dislikes, for reasons I have already mentioned before when replying to you. I'm not sure what your last comment is meant to imply, but I haven't really said anything about baseless this or whatever, and I don't think I've implied anywhere that I want to prescribe what people think. I'm merely outlining democratic principles as they are defined by most if not all democratic constitutions.], which govern the public realm, aka actions, not thoughts.
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Dear white people

Post by Gendarme »

Goodspeed wrote:The lack of solidarity here is staggering. Nothing is gained? Refugees are gaining a safe place to live and for their children to grow up ffs. And sure, that's not your problem. Have you lost touch with your humanity completely?

This attitude is the beginning of the dystopian future where we have ghettos separated from skyscrapers by physical walls. Dystopian for the people in the ghettos, that is, and who cares right? God forbid they muddy our waters.

How would you feel about this issue as a Syrian refugee?
Nothing is gained in the long term. The more you help now, the fewer you can help later, especially when pushed so far that the host nation becomes a shithole itself, not to mention that importing people is a very inefficient way of helping. It's just a scheme to destabilize our countries, and you are blind to it or fine with it. Forget that it makes the world a worse place, it satisfies your egalitarian ego and that is what matters.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by Goodspeed »

A scheme, huh? Whose?
User avatar
Germany Lukas_L99
Pro Player
Donator 01
Posts: 2059
Joined: Nov 15, 2015
ESO: Lukas_L99
Location: Lübeck

Re: Dear white people

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Goodspeed wrote:The lack of solidarity here is staggering. Nothing is gained? Refugees are gaining a safe place to live and for their children to grow up ffs. And sure, that's not your problem. Have you lost touch with your humanity completely?

This attitude is the beginning of the dystopian future where we have ghettos separated from skyscrapers by physical walls. Dystopian for the people in the ghettos, that is, and who cares right? God forbid they muddy our waters.

How would you feel about this issue as a Syrian refugee?


Sure that's the dilemma here. You wanna help people but on the other hand you also wanna protect your own people. In a perfect world we obviously could see beforehand who is gonna commit a crime and who isn't. If we didn't let that mass in we'd have a fair number of less people being raped here, and a few more young women would still be alive. On the other hand a big number of people got help.

Extreme example: If you saw 10 people outside needing help and you know one of them is very likely to murder one member of your family, would you let them all in?
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by Goodspeed »

No but that is, as you said, very far from the reality. The problems caused by immigration are overstated. The likelihood of someone I know being murdered by an immigrant is basically zero, and a shit ton of people are being given a chance at a better life. Not exactly comparable. Besides, these problems are partly a result of our own mistreatment of said immigrants.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Dear white people

Post by zoom »

Not to mention, a lot of the problems that do arise from immigration can be abated with half-decent integration policies.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Dear white people

Post by zoom »

Lukas_L99 wrote:
zoom wrote:Sure! It's just that, in the process, he unfortunately also failed to acknowledge the existance and prevalance of actual racism, as has been a common theme ITT.

It's about the whole picture; not one half, or the other.


Why would he need to acknowledge the existance of actual racism if he didn't deny it in the first place?
You're mostly right. My bad. It has been a common theme ITT, though.
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Dear white people

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user0 »

A distinction between economic immigrants and refugees should be made tbh. For the former there should simply be a policy and people who meet the criteria and then pass the immigration process (mandatory language learning etc) are allowed to stay. When it comes to refugees it might be best to first deescalate outside society, to make sure that people get used to relatively more normal living conditions and can get mental help to deal with traumas before either being sent back to their country is safe or absorbed into whatever country if it's not. It should also be a burden that's shared across countries equally (ranked by gdp or whatever)
User avatar
Germany Lukas_L99
Pro Player
Donator 01
Posts: 2059
Joined: Nov 15, 2015
ESO: Lukas_L99
Location: Lübeck

Re: Dear white people

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Goodspeed wrote:No but that is, as you said, very far from the reality. The problems caused by immigration are overstated. The likelihood of someone I know being murdered by an immigrant is basically zero, and a shit ton of people are being given a chance at a better life. Not exactly comparable. Besides, these problems are partly a result of our own mistreatment of said immigrants.


As I said extreme, but not that far from reality if you look at all the statistics many people posted here. And I’m sure the majority of victims never mistreated them either.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Dear white people

Post by gibson »

Goodspeed wrote:A scheme, huh? Whose?
You forget that genderme believes in a deepstate controlled by the jews who run the entire world.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: Dear white people

Post by gibson »

umeu wrote:A distinction between economic immigrants and refugees should be made tbh. For the former there should simply be a policy and people who meet the criteria and then pass the immigration process (mandatory language learning etc) are allowed to stay. When it comes to refugees it might be best to first deescalate outside society, to make sure that people get used to relatively more normal living conditions and can get mental help to deal with traumas before either being sent back to their country is safe or absorbed into whatever country if it's not. It should also be a burden that's shared across countries equally (ranked by gdp or whatever)
This post should just end the thread tbh, cause just about everyone here can agree on it I think.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Dear white people

  • Quote

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:The lack of solidarity here is staggering. Nothing is gained? Refugees are gaining a safe place to live and for their children to grow up ffs. And sure, that's not your problem. Have you lost touch with your humanity completely?

This attitude is the beginning of the dystopian future where we have ghettos separated from skyscrapers by physical walls. Dystopian for the people in the ghettos, that is, and who cares right? God forbid they muddy our waters.

How would you feel about this issue as a Syrian refugee?

So I presume you're sending most of your salary to help out the poor?
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by Goodspeed »

I guess half a percent isn't "most". But your view is very black and white. Inability or unwillingness to spend your entire life trying to make things better for others doesn't mean you should do nothing at all. It's not all or nothing. The price we pay for allowing immigration is very low, and its problems are not that hard to fix with proper policy. What's disgusting is people saying there is no gain in allowing refugees to cross your borders. It shows they literally haven't even considered the perspective of these immigrants, or simply do not care. Frankly it makes me lose faith in humanity, not that I had much of that to begin with.
Gendarme wrote:The problems of immigration are overstated.
The problems of immigration are overstated.
The problems of immigration are overstated.
The problems of immigration a...llahu akbar!.
Allahu akbar!
Allahu akbar!
Allahu akbar!
Do you actually think that, long term, the dominant religion in Western countries with Muslim immigrants will be Islam?
Germany blasdg
Dragoon
Posts: 256
Joined: Mar 24, 2015

Re: Dear white people

Post by blasdg »

I think we are mixing up a lot of things right now.

1. Just to make it clear because some people mentioned something like that: I think nobody denies the existence of racism.

2. The type of racism that Goodspeed probably meant when he opened the thread was not the racism that is like "I hate you because you are black" but instead a more hidden racism. As umeu said, the example of the german student with Chinese parents that has the same grades as the german dude with german parents but still gets rejected for no other reason than being Chinese is definitely some sort of racism. Still, its perfectly natural to act like that because nature tells us to stick with what we know. Having said that, I think you can extend this problem to many more aspects of every day life and I think ultimately people will change and accept that a guy can be a "true german" even if he looks Chinese (I think it has a lot to do with how you look, even though most people will deny that they choose their "sparring partners" based upon looks). So I definitely see hope in this case, given how much society already changed during the past decades.

3. The immigrant story. Based upon the numbers provided by the german government, the EUROSTAT or other governmental organisations, I think it is pretty safe to state the following things as facts:
- Immigrants are much more criminal than the average german. This might be because most of them are young men and young men are the group of human beings that in fact have the highest crime rate. Still, it does not change anything for the victims of said immigrants. And it raises the question why on earth germany is actually doing that, importing tons of young men and no women?!
- Immigrants dont help the country they are going to. Most of them dont know how to read, they dont speak german or english, they have no education and they have no clue about the culture. A certain percentage of them is muslim and really lives by the Coran. Its not forbidden but it really makes it difficult - if immigrants think women are inferior to men than we have a problem. The same problem the western society already solved years ago.
- Immigrants cost a lot of money. Its is so damn expensive to bring them here and than pay for everything they need. The german federal minister for economic cooperation and development, Gerd Müller, had some interesting numbers: Its 30 times more expensive to help refugees here in Germany than it is to help them survive in their native countries. 30 times. That means for every refugee we are saving from drowning in the Mediterranean Sea we "kill" 30 people in Syria, Tansania, Morocco, Tschad, Niger, etc. So one could argue that it is actually morally better to close all borders, let everybody who still comes here drown and than pay they same amount of money directly to the mentioned states. It saves 30 times more lives. Its pretty cynical and I dont want to do it, I am just playing devils advocate here.

What umeu says a few posts above as a possible solution is good, and as gibson said, I also agree with that. But this is a lot bigger than racism. Its about the whole future of our planet. And we wont solve it by having fruitless discussions about being a racist in terms of some random definition from the internet or from wherever.

You can tell me that its racism if I treat a refugee differently than a german simply because I value the statistical propability of being murdered higher than his right to be treated equally. But I dont care. I have one life and I certainly wont lose it because I gave the wrong person a chance to prove his innocence. Better safe than sorry. THIS is what many germans think. And as long as muslim refugees are on a killing spree, people will NOT change.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV